791 replies to this topic

[Violette]

Choombatta, on 13 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

You remove LRMs from the field of battle, you have less weapons on the field of battle.
I figured that was self explanatory.

Again, if you want a game that you have to brawl, and brawl is the only way to play.......well, there is a plethora of games out there that give you just that.

Why can we not have a game, where all factors of strategy come into play, not just twitch action?

No, I'm seeing a greater number of different weapons on the field of battle, including LRMs. So your point wasn't self-explanatory at all anyway, since you seem to be talking about variety of weapons on the field, not quantity. And there's now great variety.

Again, you're making straw men. I never said people are *only* brawling. I said they're are doing more things than they used to. And I've seen plenty of LRMs kicking around and doing damage, so they're still there. LRMs and scouts everywhere != variety.

I wouldn't call this a twitch action game either, except maybe for some lights. I am saying, and have been saying, that all elements of strategy now ARE coming into play, whereas, before, they didn't.

[Wispsy]

Choombatta, on 13 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

You remove LRMs from the field of battle, you have less weapons on the field of battle.
I figured that was self explanatory.

Again, if you want a game that you have to brawl, and brawl is the only way to play.......well, there is a plethora of games out there that give you just that.

Why can we not have a game, where all factors of strategy come into play, not just twitch action?

Lrms are not removed, they now are simply not dominant, meaning more other weapons can be used on the field.

[Violette]

Wispsy, on 13 November 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Lrms are not removed, they now are simply not dominant, meaning more other weapons can be used on the field.

This is exactly what I mean. I'm not sure why other people aren't getting this.

[Dren Nas]

Violette, on 13 November 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

HAhahaha, this. This is it. This is hilarious. This is the kind of whining I've come to expect from jilted instakill machines! Well, everyone else has a great deal more freedom, if they're looking for anything that's not LRM-centred, and I've noticed a lot of LRM boaters who are happy with the changes and just say it takes more skill now, more intelligence. So yeah, go ahead and feel restricted. Whine about the confines of having to use some skill with your LRM boating and not being able to reliably rack up the kills. Aw no, you have to be support now! Terrible stuff indeed.

The economy seems like kind of a different issue, but whatever. It's harsh on a lot of players anyway.

As for the rest... Hahaha, yeah 'go and read the thread, because obviously you haven't and we have way better arguments than you.' Or something like that. Whatever, guy.

I've been playing pretty consistently, through closed beta and through the weirdness that has been open beta, and I know I'm not the only one who has come to the conclusion that the game is way, way more fun now than it used to be. I just hope the whingebucket LRMers don't bring it back down.

Yes, i'm a "whining" and "jilted" because I need "more intelligence" to be able to take an atlas in the open down with less than 700 missiles fired. Also, I apparently have no "skill" because I feel confined in that I can not justify putting LRMs on a mech when other weapons are much better than LRMs in regards to damage/slot/tonnage.

Apparently, it's hilarious that with all this equipment used to make LRMs better or less harmful is considered a waste by most now.

In conclusion, I suppose that my opinions on the state of LRMs is a moot point since i've only been playing the (closed/open) beta since July 21 of this year... and I must be a "whingebucket" for expressing my unhappiness in the matter.

Choombatta, on 13 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

You remove LRMs from the field of battle, you have less weapons on the field of battle.
I figured that was self explanatory.

Again, if you want a game that you have to brawl, and brawl is the only way to play.......well, there is a plethora of games out there that give you just that.

Why can we not have a game, where all factors of strategy come into play, not just twitch action?

well, world of tanks has artillery. It's not all about twitch action.

[Kaijin]

Violette, on 13 November 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

No, I'm seeing a greater number of different weapons on the field of battle, including LRMs. So your point wasn't self-explanatory at all anyway, since you seem to be talking about variety of weapons on the field, not quantity. And there's now great variety.

Again, you're making straw men. I never said people are *only* brawling. I said they're are doing more things than they used to. And I've seen plenty of LRMs kicking around and doing damage, so they're still there. LRMs and scouts everywhere != variety.

Certainly there are many trial Catapult C1s on the field, and piloted by complete newbies who've no idea they're driving junk. How do I know they're newbies, you might ask. Well, they've no piloting skill, and they're firing off their LRMs at me well under 180m. Scouts are everywhere because there is no collision, making Light mechs the best chance at racking up a bunch of kills and winning matches. Except for the trial Commandos. They fire off that large laser and shut down for the next available Jenner to come along and put it out of it's misery.

Violette, on 13 November 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

I wouldn't call this a twitch action game either, except maybe for some lights. I am saying, and have been saying, that all elements of strategy now ARE coming into play, whereas, before, they didn't.

Could you be more specific about these elements of strategy that are flourishing now that LRMs can be pretty much ignored?

[Valdez Raptor]

Wispsy, on 13 November 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Lrms are not removed, they now are simply not dominant, meaning more other weapons can be used on the field.

Violette, on 13 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

This is exactly what I mean. I'm not sure why other people aren't getting this.

Let me help explain to on this.

We like weapon variety, we don't want LRM's to dominate the entire field. We want them to be an actual factor in play. Variety of weapons is great, and you will be seeing that but the problem is, LRM's are too underpowered and not worth bringing in. We want LRM's t be included in this variety of weapons. They have their own drawbacks, heat, weight, min range to work out, max ranges, AMS's, terran, the warning they are coming in, their ammo cost, ect. When stacked against all those draw backs, they don't have the benefit that outweighs that. Their effect on the overall battlefield is negligible.

You mention there are LRM boat captains that mention that they enjoy the changes, what you ignore is the list of LRM captains that don't because of this lack of effect on the battlefield. I play a few mechs, one of them is an LRM boat. Each one has a different feel, play style, use and purpose, but since the last patch, the purpose of an LRM boat has basically been stripped away.

[Scratx]

I like the fact LRMs are no longer dominant, and I especially enjoy the fact so many people seem to think that means they can just waltz around and ignore that "Incoming Missile" warning.

Why, because LRMs suck, right? /sarcasm

My C4 Catapult is perfectly capable of killing mechs in just a few salvos. Even when I don't get the kill, I heavily influence brawls by literally stripping away the armor of the enemy brawlers. Just takes 2 salvos and most medium mechs will have lost so much of their armor they're indisputably at a severe disadvantage.

Honestly? That's usually all you really need to do to, place your enemies at a large disadvantage with forceful application of iron rain. If you can't seem to do a lot of damage, then you're doing something wrong.

Ask anybody who's seen my C4 in action. It's a true LRM Boat. No Artemis needed. Or wanted, actually, as a particularly bad loss can run me up for 140k already...


Edit: Because people will doubt my tale, I'll say this much ... 4 LRM15 launchers.

Edited by Scratx, 13 November 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[Dren Nas]

Kaijin, on 13 November 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Could you be more specific about these elements of strategy that are flourishing now that LRMs can be pretty much ignored?

The only one I can think of is "run to the cap point" :-/

And I think capping is too easy atm... but that's another can of worms meant for another thread.

Edited by Dren Nas, 13 November 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[Violette]

Dren Nas, on 13 November 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

The only one I can think of is "run to the cap point" :-/

And I think capping is too easy atm... but that's another can of worms meant for another thread.

If that's all you can think of, my long-time whiner friend, then the problem rests pretty squarely on your shoulders. Good luck learning a bit of creativity, or whatever it is you happen to be lacking.

Scratx, on 13 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

I like the fact LRMs are no longer dominant, and I especially enjoy the fact so many people seem to think that means they can just waltz around and ignore that "Incoming Missile" warning.

Why, because LRMs suck, right? /sarcasm

My C4 Catapult is perfectly capable of killing mechs in just a few salvos. Even when I don't get the kill, I heavily influence brawls by literally stripping away the armor of the enemy brawlers. Just takes 2 salvos and most medium mechs will have lost so much of their armor they're indisputably at a severe disadvantage.

Honestly? That's usually all you really need to do to, place your enemies at a large disadvantage with forceful application of iron rain. If you can't seem to do a lot of damage, then you're doing something wrong.

Ask anybody who's seen my C4 in action. It's a true LRM Boat. No Artemis needed. Or wanted, actually, as a particularly bad loss can run me up for 140k already...


Edit: Because people will doubt my tale, I'll say this much ... 4 LRM15 launchers.

Good stuff. And that's what a true LRM boat should be. Others should have to equip some lasers or other weapons in order to be effective units. I think I've seen a few players like you, too. You do exist, contrary to what people seem to be spouting around here.

As for the rest of you, no I'm pretty sure you're just whining. I don't care if you've been playing for a long time; so have I (longer than you think, that's for sure.) And no I don't feel the need to spell out three or four or ten strategies you can use now and that are fun now that weren't before, so that we can then argue about each and every one of those, too. Have fun crying, I'm going to play the game.

[Valdez Raptor]

Violette, on 13 November 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Have fun crying, I'm going to play the game.

Not to feed the troll here, but I think this exactly your problem. You automatically assume that because we feel that LRM's were over nerfed that we are whining. We aren't whining we are stating that LRM's are now underpowered the way they were meant. I am sure if the same nerf was to be applied to other weapons, you'd be complaining about it as well.

So I will try to show you what we want, and why we consider them to be over nerfed.

My numbers will be a bit arbitrary but I am going to use percentages. 0% is they have no power to where they should. 100% is the perfect golden power/use. Anything over 100% is too much power.

Before artimis LRM's were around 100% to 110% in power, maybe 115%.
During the 2 day period LRM's became 160% or so in power.
Currently they are 40 to 60% in power.

We want to get back to that golden 90 to 110 range closer to the 100/90 side.

Now, can someone take an underpowered weapon and make it OMG, yes. Take a look at the guy who says he ran 4 lrm 15's. The more common mech config is 2 15's or 2 20's. So for him in order to feel "just about right" has to do about double the amount of ammo per shot. Now I am sure he sacrafices much for this be it speed, lasers, armor, what have you. Other mechs who tend to sacrafice this much, say my gauss cat is ungodly. The same mech chasis shouldn't have to sacrafice the same mount as me to only feel "just about right" (Sorry not direct quoting you to say you said just about right but the way your post is stated it gives off that feel)

So in fact this sort of proves the point I make. If LRM's are about 40 to 60% the power they should be then his double the standard LRM boat would compensate for this at best. Frankly an LRM boat that puts that much into LRM's should be a rather feared thing but still easily counterable (aka get close and personnel) Something like that should be like my gausscat. Hell my Atlas which has 1 gauss had a sniper battle at 900m with an LRM boat, guess what? We are both in the open firing at each other neither of us move to take cover, and I won. My gausscat would do it twice as fast, and furthermore wasn't even scaved by his LRM barrage. I wasn't "Softened" at all since I went on killing 2 other people on the team and capping.

Was that LRM boat stupid for not moving from my gauss shots? Yes, but guess what? He was punished by death for that, and me for doing the same thing? Barely a scratch.

I'd like it where a battle between two mechs like that would be close, forcing him to move, and me to move. Currently that 40 to 60% strength of what it is now, is not it.

[Violette]

Valdez Raptor, on 13 November 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Not to feed the troll here, but I think this exactly your problem. You automatically assume that because we feel that LRM's were over nerfed that we are whining. We aren't whining we are stating that LRM's are now underpowered the way they were meant. I am sure if the same nerf was to be applied to other weapons, you'd be complaining about it as well.

So I will try to show you what we want, and why we consider them to be over nerfed.

My numbers will be a bit arbitrary but I am going to use percentages. 0% is they have no power to where they should. 100% is the perfect golden power/use. Anything over 100% is too much power.

Before artimis LRM's were around 100% to 110% in power, maybe 115%.
During the 2 day period LRM's became 160% or so in power.
Currently they are 40 to 60% in power.

We want to get back to that golden 90 to 110 range closer to the 100/90 side.

Now, can someone take an underpowered weapon and make it OMG, yes. Take a look at the guy who says he ran 4 lrm 15's. The more common mech config is 2 15's or 2 20's. So for him in order to feel "just about right" has to do about double the amount of ammo per shot. Now I am sure he sacrafices much for this be it speed, lasers, armor, what have you. Other mechs who tend to sacrafice this much, say my gauss cat is ungodly. The same mech chasis shouldn't have to sacrafice the same mount as me to only feel "just about right" (Sorry not direct quoting you to say you said just about right but the way your post is stated it gives off that feel)

So in fact this sort of proves the point I make. If LRM's are about 40 to 60% the power they should be then his double the standard LRM boat would compensate for this at best. Frankly an LRM boat that puts that much into LRM's should be a rather feared thing but still easily counterable (aka get close and personnel) Something like that should be like my gausscat. Hell my Atlas which has 1 gauss had a sniper battle at 900m with an LRM boat, guess what? We are both in the open firing at each other neither of us move to take cover, and I won. My gausscat would do it twice as fast, and furthermore wasn't even scaved by his LRM barrage. I wasn't "Softened" at all since I went on killing 2 other people on the team and capping.

Was that LRM boat stupid for not moving from my gauss shots? Yes, but guess what? He was punished by death for that, and me for doing the same thing? Barely a scratch.

I'd like it where a battle between two mechs like that would be close, forcing him to move, and me to move. Currently that 40 to 60% strength of what it is now, is not it.

That 100% seems very arbitrary, indeed. I think LRMs should have to be pretty maxed out to be effective as your main/only weapon. Others should have to include additional weapons for versatility and viability. I am 100% okay with that.

Gauss cannons are huge, heavy weapons which you have to aim directly; no one can lock targets for your gauss cannon. They are rightly feared. I don't really see the problem with that beating out some anonymous LRM boat whose loadout neither of us really knows.

Btw, I haven't 'automatically' assumed anything. I've read plenty here. I've compared it to my experiences in game, and I find the case for keeping things as they are pretty compelling. At *most*, I would consider a tiny damage increase (0.05 or maybe 0.1, idk) OR a tiny spread decrease (1% or 2%.) LRMs are most certainly not at 40-60% of where they should be. The game before Artemis was okay; it could be fun if you had a full team and a plan. Now it's fun no matter what you're doing. Like, it WAS 40-60% the weapons balance it should have been; now it's 100%. Ner ner ner.

Also, you can call me a troll if you want, but I am honestly expressing my opinion about a. LRMs and b. the people who are complaining about them now. Not actually doing it for the lulz. That would be boring. There are better lulz to be had, I'm sure...

Edited by Violette, 13 November 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[Iulianus]

Even when LRMs were "OP" I learned to live with it while others complained. Now that they have been given a dose of nerf, people will learn to live with it while others complain.

If you ask me, there are a lot of other severely underpowered and more often neglected weapons in the game that need attention (PPC, Flamer, NARC, to name a few). Systems that are mostly only being used to try them out until they realize how underpowered they are, and move on to a more effective method. LRMs are still a very common part of most matches that I have been in. Whether you think they are over or underpowered, they are being used in volumes. That is why I think there are other systems that need the "balance" attention before LRMs get tweaked again.

[4er3BaPa]

Quote

Gausscat/PPC-cat - for longrange sniping (K2)
Guncats - for close range duel (K2)
Laser+SRM - med/close range support (C1, C4)
StreakCats - anti-scouts (and limit long-range support if LRM+sSRM installed at your A1)
As you see, all variants designated in team-play tactics, but LRM nerfed hardly, only trial C1 i'll see on battlefields...

LRM-boat - fire support mech only, missile run slowly, spread and minimum random damage over all target crits = no high damage, no lots of kills
WTF "Missile crusade wars" - Arthemisis bug, not LRM! Bug fixed (why you nerf the LRM?!?!?)...all Cats dismount LRM's now, because this weapon not granted high k/d ratio
Even targeting support overall damage sadden, guns/lasers/srm's loadouts more useful for team in a few maps
Rearm cost with Arthemis - outrageous (players use only 75% free rearm, wtf price controlling, negative marginal balance each games...)
See prev posts, "Incoming missile" ignoring as LRM sucks weap, doesn't?

[Vrekgar]

Violette, on 13 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

This is exactly what I mean. I'm not sure why other people aren't getting this.

They were dominant for 2 days because of a bug and a new arc that WAS OP. Prior to the patch you only saw them because 3 of 4 trial mechs had them.

[Kaziganthi]

Dren Nas, on 13 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

And by interesting, I suppose you mean the fact that you can strafe circles around your opponent with impunity?

Just wait till the Clan LRM's come into effect with NO minimum range (if kept to TT stats) for the even bigger cries from the close in brawlers saying that LRM's are still overpowered.

mattkachu, on 13 November 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

I dont think missiles are as bad as people said they are. LRM spammers just miss the 2 salvo kills they had, and now they're doing less in each battle while having the same high cost of ammo. Tweak it? maybe. Dont think it'll matter though. People will complain until its back to the 2 salvo of death it was.

Again, lets refer to the broken days that we are not calling for. One of my CATs can alpha strike with 50 LRMs, and even that takes 3 full volleys to take out a Commando. Prior to DHS that also meant a heat overide as well, which left me pretty much open until i coolled down and powered back up again unless I overide and possibly explode.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 13 November 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[Violette]

Vrekgar, on 13 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

They were dominant for 2 days because of a bug and a new arc that WAS OP. Prior to the patch you only saw them because 3 of 4 trial mechs had them.

HAHAHA WHAT.

I know about the AWS-8T (and others) but WHAT? Are you *sure* that's the only reason why I saw them? Aye...

Iulianus, on 13 November 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Even when LRMs were "OP" I learned to live with it while others complained. Now that they have been given a dose of nerf, people will learn to live with it while others complain.

If you ask me, there are a lot of other severely underpowered and more often neglected weapons in the game that need attention (PPC, Flamer, NARC, to name a few). Systems that are mostly only being used to try them out until they realize how underpowered they are, and move on to a more effective method. LRMs are still a very common part of most matches that I have been in. Whether you think they are over or underpowered, they are being used in volumes. That is why I think there are other systems that need the "balance" attention before LRMs get tweaked again.

I'm very happy to see that I am not the only one who has noticed that LRMs are still very much in use, and that with great success.

[Dren Nas]

Kaziganthi, on 13 November 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Just wait till the Clan LRM's come into effect with NO minimum range (if kept to TT stats) for the even bigger dries from the close in brawlers saying that LRM's are still overpowered.

Of course that will be OP and brawlers will want them nurfed into oblivion because a "support mech" killed them. XD

[Dren Nas]

Iulianus, on 13 November 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

If you ask me, there are a lot of other severely underpowered and more often neglected weapons in the game that need attention (PPC, Flamer, NARC, to name a few).

I will agree that out of all the weapons the poor flamer has been the most neglected

[Kaziganthi]

Dren Nas, on 13 November 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

I will agree that out of all the weapons the poor flamer has been the most neglected

A weapon thats sole purpose is to cause heat to a mech, thats it? Yeah go post your sarcasm elsewhere

[Dren Nas]

Kaziganthi, on 13 November 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

A weapon thats sole purpose is to cause heat to a mech, thats it? Yeah go post your sarcasm elsewhere

lol XD