791 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

Choombatta, on 14 November 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

You know exactly what I meant.
What makes something a "Support" only Mech?
Is it the chassis, the loadout, or the play style?

If it is the chassis, than a K2 is support?
If it is the loadout, than anything with LRMs is support?
If it is playstyle, than anything that does not "brawl" is support?

A support mech is one that fields alot of non direct fire weapons and or weapon lock boosters.
Ie, a Cat with 2 LRM15s no matter it's other weapons is a support mech. It's chassis isn't up to the straight up abuse that brawling provides. It's neither fast enough to get in and zip out, (like a dragon, or even faster mechs like the jenner) nor armored enough to soak in combat.

A support mech can also be a light mech that's armed with TAG/Narc.
Anything that is not a Mainline Fighter, is a support mech.

A K2 is a brawler by virtue of carrying 2 ludicrous weapons that are nigh indestructible without popping the mech itself.

It's a combination of the weapons, and mech chassis that determines if a mech is a support mech or not. Which lends directly to Playstyle. If the mech can't scrum it up in heavy fighting either by it's weapon loadouts, and chassis then yes it's a support mech.

[Kaijin]

Scratx, on 14 November 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

Stock armor, yes, IIRC, I'd have to doublecheck, but I can do 63kph with speed tweak. No jumpjets, have 2x Small Lasers for self defense and "out of ammo" combat. Which I always hope I never actually have to use but have.

If a jenner comes for me and survives into the LRM dead zone and nobody is alive or able to help me, I die. Duh. Price of being an LRM boat!

Fortunately, I do have the mobility to go look for help, so I am usually among the last to die on any match... lights are not usually my killers.

I'm skilling up Jenners at present. With your 6 point short range alpha, I wouldn't even have to dance. Easy aiming on your pods. 4 alphas at most and you're neutered. That Cat is impractical for anything but PUG-stomping. It used to be that 2 LRM15s were sufficient, which left enough tonnage remaining for a C1 to at least have a deterrent to being neutralized within the first 5 minutes of the match. You're carrying twice the launchers and talking about how effective LRMs are.

[Kaziganthi]

Mavairo, on 14 November 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

A support mech is one that fields alot of non direct fire weapons and or weapon lock boosters.

So an SSRM2 cat is a support mech is what your saying, as is any mech that mounts on SSRM's as they are non direct fire weapons and use weapon locks. Hell any mech that mounts any missile system including normal SRM's is a support mech is what your saying.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 14 November 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[Mavairo]

Kaziganthi, on 14 November 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

So an SSRM2 cat is a support mech is what your saying, as is any mech that mounts on SSRM's as they are non direct fire weapons and use weapon locks. Hell any mech that mounts a missile system is a support mech.

It can be considered one yes. the Streak Cat isn't going to be in the hottest part of a given furball for very long. It jumps in, locks on, dumps shots, gets out if it knows what's best for it. (unless the enemy team is completely functionally mentally handicapped and refuse to switch targets and kill the streak cat before it kills someone) Then comes back when it's ready for another go. While it is -in- the furball it's not the anchor point of one. Much like how a full energy 1C Dragon is. They are skirmishers, to assist the guys that are actually doing the grunt work and soaking fire.

Edited by Mavairo, 14 November 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Kaijin]

Mavairo, on 14 November 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

A support mech is one that fields alot of non direct fire weapons and or weapon lock boosters.
Ie, a Cat with 2 LRM15s no matter it's other weapons is a support mech. It's chassis isn't up to the straight up abuse that brawling provides. It's neither fast enough to get in and zip out, (like a dragon, or even faster mechs like the jenner) nor armored enough to soak in combat.

A support mech can also be a light mech that's armed with TAG/Narc.
Anything that is not a Mainline Fighter, is a support mech.

A K2 is a brawler by virtue of carrying 2 ludicrous weapons that are nigh indestructible without popping the mech itself.

It's a combination of the weapons, and mech chassis that determines if a mech is a support mech or not. Which lends directly to Playstyle. If the mech can't scrum it up in heavy fighting either by it's weapon loadouts, and chassis then yes it's a support mech.

All my Cats carry full armor, and when I was using LRMs before the nerf, the ones with LRMs all had enough short-range weaponry to be self-sufficent enough to not require tying up another teammate's firepower playing bodyguard. Support mechs that cannot endure an enemy Striker's attentions for a minute or two (until 'The Calvary' arrives) are a liability to their team - not an asset.

Edited by Kaijin, 14 November 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Lykaon]

Noth, on 10 November 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

No they haven't, you just can't solo the big mechs as easily now. They still pack a hurt and when used smartly (in combo with other weapons and team mates) they are very effective. As a support weapon, it isn't always all about what you do, but how what you do effects your team mates. I still see LRMs grabbing kills and putting up good damage numbers.

Today I was direct firing 2 LRM15s and 2 LRM5s from a Catapult C4. I mean directly aiming at targets 300 or so meters away.
I exspended over 4 tons of ammo in the battle and ended up dealing under 200 damage.

Each volley should be dealing 68 damage with each missile doing 1.7 (the stated nerfed damage level) even with 50% hit ratio per volley (34 damage on target) 10 vollies would deal around 350 damage.I fired in excess of 20 vollies and didn't manage 200 damage while firing directly at targets.

When firing indirectly I saw scores as poor as 80 damage from 10+ vollies.This is not a matter of my performance it is the weapon system's performance.Prior to the last patch (the godlike LRMS and subsiquent nerfing) I would routinely land damage scores in the 500-800 and on occation land damage over 1000. (during the uber LURMS period I would only do around 500 damage but make 6 kills so yeah way over powered)

LRMs as they are now are performing so poorly that they are not even hitting 25% effectivness of previous LRM performances (not even talking about the super LURMs) A mech with four LRM15s isn't hitting the numbers a mech with a single LRM15 was capable of two patches ago.

[Kaziganthi]

Lykaon, on 14 November 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Today I was direct firing 2 LRM15s and 2 LRM5s from a Catapult C4. I mean directly aiming at targets 300 or so meters away.
I exspended over 4 tons of ammo in the battle and ended up dealing under 200 damage.

Each volley should be dealing 68 damage with each missile doing 1.7 (the stated nerfed damage level) even with 50% hit ratio per volley (34 damage on target) 10 vollies would deal around 350 damage.I fired in excess of 20 vollies and didn't manage 200 damage while firing directly at targets.

When firing indirectly I saw scores as poor as 80 damage from 10+ vollies.This is not a matter of my performance it is the weapon system's performance.Prior to the last patch (the godlike LRMS and subsiquent nerfing) I would routinely land damage scores in the 500-800 and on occation land damage over 1000. (during the uber LURMS period I would only do around 500 damage but make 6 kills so yeah way over powered)

LRMs as they are now are performing so poorly that they are not even hitting 25% effectivness of previous LRM performances (not even talking about the super LURMs) A mech with four LRM15s isn't hitting the numbers a mech with a single LRM15 was capable of two patches ago.

And that is what I have stated in just about every post I have made regarding matches I've been in. The damage supposedly being done doesn't add up with what I'm actually seeing happen in the battle.

Edit: when I can fire off 1440 rounds and still get less than 300 damage, something is wrong in the state of Denmark.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 14 November 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[Mavairo]

Kaijin, on 14 November 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

All my Cats carry full armor, and when I was using LRMs before the nerf, the ones with LRMs all had enough short-range weaponry to be self-sufficent enough to not require tying up another teammate's firepower playing bodyguard. Support mechs that cannot endure an enemy Striker's attentions for a minute or two (until 'The Calvary' arrives) are a liability to their team - not an asset.

But you still wouldn't put that mech into the furball itself now would you? Duh, a mech is supposed to have armor enough to survive not so kind attentions from enemy jenners. But your support mech isn't going to survive that long against a full team now is it?

Also, there should be (even before the current LRM stats) always be a mech nearby to support the LRMs. Be it a friendly light, or even just a short range cat. (or if a pair of cats are both LRM and Streak equipped even that can be enough) If there isn't mech that can't get to you to help you in under 30 seconds, then your team is doing it wrong anyway and is probably going to lose the match regardless of your artillery strikes.

[Kaijin]

Mavairo, on 14 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

But you still wouldn't put that mech into the furball itself now would you? Duh, a mech is supposed to have armor enough to survive not so kind attentions from enemy jenners. But your support mech isn't going to survive that long against a full team now is it?

Also, there should be (even before the current LRM stats) always be a mech nearby to support the LRMs. Be it a friendly light, or even just a short range cat. (or if a pair of cats are both LRM and Streak equipped even that can be enough) If there isn't mech that can't get to you to help you in under 30 seconds, then your team is doing it wrong anyway and is probably going to lose the match regardless of your artillery strikes.

My team manages just fine without any weak links.

Also, my Cats are all Zombies, so they survive a furball longer than you might think. I build no glass cannons.

Edited by Kaijin, 14 November 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[Choombatta]

Mavairo, on 14 November 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

A support mech is one that fields alot of non direct fire weapons and or weapon lock boosters.
Ie, a Cat with 2 LRM15s no matter it's other weapons is a support mech. It's chassis isn't up to the straight up abuse that brawling provides. It's neither fast enough to get in and zip out, (like a dragon, or even faster mechs like the jenner) nor armored enough to soak in combat.

A support mech can also be a light mech that's armed with TAG/Narc.
Anything that is not a Mainline Fighter, is a support mech.

A K2 is a brawler by virtue of carrying 2 ludicrous weapons that are nigh indestructible without popping the mech itself.

It's a combination of the weapons, and mech chassis that determines if a mech is a support mech or not. Which lends directly to Playstyle. If the mech can't scrum it up in heavy fighting either by it's weapon loadouts, and chassis then yes it's a support mech.

So, what you are saying is........."Support" is in the eye of the beholder.
It is nothing but opinion.
To me a "support" Mech is any Mech ( chassis and loadout irrelevant ) that requires additional Mechs to be useful.
If you can run LRMs, SSRMs, and lasers, to me, that is not a "support" Mech, but a self-sufficient Mech.

So, as I have always suspected, what defines "Support Mech" is what side of the argument you are on.

[wanderer]

Kaijin, on 14 November 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

All my Cats carry full armor, and when I was using LRMs before the nerf, the ones with LRMs all had enough short-range weaponry to be self-sufficent enough to not require tying up another teammate's firepower playing bodyguard. Support mechs that cannot endure an enemy Striker's attentions for a minute or two (until 'The Calvary' arrives) are a liability to their team - not an asset.

What he said. For me, it's the difference between "boat" and "carrier".

LRM boats are useless inside of 180m, because that's all they have for effective firepower. Carriers pack enough missiles to be effective in a sustained engagement, but also enough secondary weaponry to make an impression on attackers.

One is a turret that's helpless against direct attack. The other one has enough firepower to make an impression on opponents and actually bite back when closed-in upon.

The number of Catapults I've seen that I wish would have downgraded one launcher by 5 for a medium laser battery has long since passed my capacity to count high enough, mostly as some smart fella (like me) who waded in and just gnawed their face off without a care in the world.

[Kaziganthi]

wanderer, on 14 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

What he said. For me, it's the difference between "boat" and "carrier".

LRM boats are useless inside of 180m, because that's all they have for effective firepower. Carriers pack enough missiles to be effective in a sustained engagement, but also enough secondary weaponry to make an impression on attackers.

One is a turret that's helpless against direct attack. The other one has enough firepower to make an impression on opponents and actually bite back when closed-in upon.

The number of Catapults I've seen that I wish would have downgraded one launcher by 5 for a medium laser battery has long since passed my capacity to count high enough, mostly as some smart fella (like me) who waded in and just gnawed their face off without a care in the world.

So when Clan tech comes in and the minmum range on LRM's is removed, all those "Boats" now become "Carriers" or will their be a cry to nerf all the LRM boats..oops i mean carriers, again.

[Grizley]

I run an Atlas with an LRM 20, SRM6, Gauss, and 2x MPL. The LRM 20 is very handy, when someone realizes they're getting absolutely wrecked at close range they tend to turn and run. If they do that a volley or two of LRMs finishes them off. Similarly a couple of volleys of LRMs while closing strips enough armor that they're at a disadvantage when they get into range. It also works wonders at stopping the Cataturret style support mech with either Gauss rifles or LRMs.

I had mixed success with a 2x lrm 15 Artemis 3x Med laser Cat. If I got ignored I did great damage and usually won the match. More often I would get off 4 volleys or so of missiles and a couple of lights charged over and then I spend the next 4 minutes dancing around with a mech that is faster and better armed. I get rock beats scissors, and light knife fighters counter LRM boats so that's fine. If I were a dedicated LRM boater though I would find that frustrating.

In short, stop trying to pound nails with a grapefruit while you have a hammer in the toolbox.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

The issue with LRMs is the repair cost. My Catapult spends over 100k in repair costs even if he wasn't hurt. My Atlas can be entirely DESTROYED and not even hit 100k to fix. How the hell does this make sense? So they aren't bad at damage and are fun to use... but as far as profitable money making goes... they suck. Losing half your win reward to repairs when you were barely scratched = NOT COOL. I can make 250-300k in an Atlas and average about 70-80k in repairs. My Catapult nets me less than 250k usually and always 100k+ in repairs. Wtf?

[Grizley]

You see extreme reload costs when you're buying 10 tons of Artemis LRMs every match. That could be a gentle hint that you're not really intended to do that.

You CAN do that, but it doesn't mean it's ideal.

How much Hunchback Ps do you see carrying 6 large lasers? They could...

[Kilgore]

One of the reasons Jenners and Cicadas are so strong right now is the lack of knockdown, but also the drop in LRM use.

The lower the LRM use, the harder it is for teams to kill scouts who are pestering the lagging mechs like the support LRM mechs. The more scouts, the harder it is to be a LRM support mech. It's a cycle that's locked in a downward spiral.

LRM support mechs might be viable at their current damage if they weren't so vulnerable to scouts. They wouldn't be usable based on the repair costs, but that fix has to happen regardless of whether or not they re-adjust the damage.

I suggest fixing knockdown first before trying to fix LRMs because that might make LRMs not so penalized.

[Kilgore]

Also, since knockdown has to be fixed no matter what, it stands to reason that fixing both knockdown and LRM damage at the same time make LRMs more OP than desired.

[Heffay]

LRMs are fine. I was making some LRM based videos with 3 friends (me in a Jenner and them in LRM boats of various types). We had no expectation of winning, just were looking to get some good video of the sky lit up with LRMs.

In an hour and a half, we lost one match. It's one we could have won too, but we decided raining LRMs down on them as they stood in the cap point made for some *excellent* video.

Yeah, I know. PuGs....

[Percival Hasek]

Grizley, on 14 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

You see extreme reload costs when you're buying 10 tons of Artemis LRMs every match. That could be a gentle hint that you're not really intended to do that.

You CAN do that, but it doesn't mean it's ideal.

How much Hunchback Ps do you see carrying 6 large lasers? They could...

Well, if you have artemis, all of your ammo has ot be Artemis. What are you supposed to do--take the stupidly low amounts of amo you see on trial mechs. With the pathetic damage of LRM's, you have to make up in volume of rapid fire. That requires heat sinks, and lots of ammo. if you dont take a lot of ammo, you are soon dry, left with no weapons--or a few popgun lasers on a slow 'mech. Its a losing proposition either way with LRM's. Given the huge costs you start relying on the 75%free ammo, and to boost that up so at 75% you get enough to cover most of a fight, you have to strip out items for..more ammo slots. Basically, the state of the game now is punishing players taking LRM's. Less damage, more cost, and a fairly futile weapon against fast movers.

[Greyfyl]

Heffay, on 14 November 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

LRMs are fine. I was making some LRM based videos with 3 friends (me in a Jenner and them in LRM boats of various types). We had no expectation of winning, just were looking to get some good video of the sky lit up with LRMs.

In an hour and a half, we lost one match. It's one we could have won too, but we decided raining LRMs down on them as they stood in the cap point made for some *excellent* video.

Yeah, I know. PuGs....

So you think LRM's are fine because you were able to run a premade and beat up on pugs with them? I guess the issue is now settled.