26 replies to this topic

[Glory in the Highest]

In the wake of Russ's announcement of 3rd Person View coming to MWO, RHOD staff decided to have an "emergency" cast to discuss the issue that has set the community boards on fire.

Here it is on YouTube:


Listen to the original NGNG Podcast at http://nogutsnogalax...2-russ-bullock/

View the Offical 3rd Person Forum Thread on the MWO Forum at http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/73172-the-official-3rd-person-view-feedback-...

View the 3rd Person Community Poll at[/color]http://mwomercs.com/...son-its-coming/

A very good thread started by RumRunner151 with consolidated links to several posts on the subjects addressed this evening: http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/73582-3rd-person-view-centralized-thread-gui...

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You can also subscribe to the audio version of the cast by clicking here.

Previous RHOD Casts can be found on the YouTube page or at our TwitchTV channel.

Remember, we cast live at 2PM EST every Sunday (except Nov 18th, which will either be a pre-recorded broadcast or just uploaded to YouTube) so tune into our Twitch channel ( www.twitch.tv/runhotordie ) to chat with other viewers while we discuss topics important to the competitive side of the MWO community.

Edited by Glory, 15 November 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

TL;DR, please.

[John Clavell]

Really enjoyed discussing this, thanks for inviting me back on to the show so soon!

[TheMagician]

It was a fun discussion.

[cmopatrick]

good discussion.

[Glory in the Highest]

Definitely enjoyed the discussion, it's good to have knowledgeable gamers come together and discuss issues that really have a vital effect on their favorite franchise.

Here's to many more discussions, and presenting the competitive viewpoint without fear. :3

Edited by Glory, 15 November 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[Gill Neptune]

I see tons of bad teamwork and tactics because players can't see who's right around them. A 360-degree view from cameras mounted around the mech, say, bound to the arrow keys, would be a practical alternative to the 3rd person view, and more in the spirit of the mech pilot experience.

[John Clavell]

Lance Jackson, on 15 November 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

I see tons of bad teamwork and tactics because players can't see who's right around them. A 360-degree view from cameras mounted around the mech, say, bound to the arrow keys, would be a practical alternative to the 3rd person view, and more in the spirit of the mech pilot experience.

The problem with this is it might start to outright break the game design. Currently they limit our FOV and LOS for a reason over having 360 degree radar. Which was something we had back in Mechwarrior 4. I remember when MekTek introduced the new LOS based radar and it certainly took some getting used to, what we have here is very much of the same ilk with more bells and whistles.

Now you could have the radar still only pick up targets based on the current LOS rules, However, PGI has avoided even putting in a rear view camera, again something we all had back in MW4. After first getting into Beta and having to get my head around these changes. Certainly losing the ability to see where my enemy is at pretty much all the time. I feel like it's added a lot more dimension to the game. Previously it would of been impossible to get up behind you unnoticed unless the server was set to 'No Radar', and no radar was never super popular.

So if they allowed us to, from a 3rd person view, look around our mech, Just like with 360 radar, your breaking the game design pretty badly IMHO. If they do 3rd person I would be extremely surprised if the angle dose not allow enemy mechs to get in behind you without being noticed.

[Ohgodtherats]

Even if I agree with most things said... this makes me appreciate NGNG all the more.

[lsp]

Lance Jackson, on 15 November 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

I see tons of bad teamwork and tactics because players can't see who's right around them. A 360-degree view from cameras mounted around the mech, say, bound to the arrow keys, would be a practical alternative to the 3rd person view, and more in the spirit of the mech pilot experience.

Look at your map and use free look, not that hard. I don't think first person only is a issue, there's no excuse for 3rd person. I think it's just a attempt to bring in more people(casual). I've never heard anyone say Ohh man, moving in this game is soo hard. I wish it had third person, that would make everything soo much better!!, not once have I heard that.

The controls are pretty straight forward, all you have to do is look in the options. If you've ever played any game that uses wasd for movement, you can play mechwarrior online. Which is probably 98% of today's gamers.

The bad teamwork and tactics you see, is from pug players being solo and not using chat or any teamwork at all.

Edited by lsp, 16 November 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

even IF it´s an issue how to use the torso twist (which i don´t believe to be such a huge problem) .... 3rd person won´t fix that...3rd person is eye candy and an overview advantage...

a proper tutorial, where people get their nose slammed into the minimap, the viewangle and so on... would be much more effective...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 16 November 2012 - 03:33 AM.

[Leetskeet]

Adrienne Vorton, on 16 November 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

even IF it´s an issue how to use the torso twist (which i don´t believe to be such a huge problem) .... 3rd person won´t fix that...3rd person is eye candy and an overview advantage....

It's just an excuse for them to go forward with it, because they think it's going to attract people to the game and they needed something to say to the people that don't want it. Ignoring that they had said that there would never be a 3rd person camera(as they're going to be breaking a lot of promises, especially in the hero mech catergory, get used to it), I do find it a little ridiculous that this is the excuse that they chose.

They don't have a tutorial or a test map and the issue is that people can't see their own mech from the outside? What?

[TheMagician]

Ohgodtherats, on 16 November 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Even if I agree with most things said... this makes me appreciate NGNG all the more.

NGNG has its own style and goals. Our podcast is for people who are interested in the competitive scene of MWO. This includes how changes in the game will affect competitive play. Our podcast is like other competitive gaming podcasts, it is live streamed, and raw. If we make mistakes, you'll hear them, because we won't just edit it out.

Edited by TheMagician, 16 November 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

Interesting, do you guys think that 3rd person would force the core game away from 1st person?

My apologies if this was discussed in the video, I'm currently unable to listen, yet really wanted to ask that.

EDIT:

Ack, I ment to say core meta game away from 1st person.

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 16 November 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[Runz]

The general consensus is that it had some very negative connotations one of which would be the division of the community between those who refused to use 3rd person and those who would use it (even if they didn't necessarily agree with it) because it gave that competitive edge.

There also a very real risk of alienating the core fanbase in the bid to attract new players. For my money I feel that by sticking to the original gameplay principles of an immersive first person mecha sim with a strong competitive scene will naturally attract new players over time (look at LoL for example - that started out with a core DoTA fanbase and has exploded due to persistence, regular updates and a stong competitive scene without compromising its original design).

3rd Person is needed as a spectator option, especially if they want to move down the eSports path, but not as a piloting option. One of the reasons cited, helping new players understand the game, could easily be overcome with better tutorial options (see LoL's tutorial mission) or by allowing new players to stick to a (optional) noob pool for their first few games (Starcraft 2) or by even by having chat channels in the client where new players can ask questions (SC2 and LoL)

[Mechteric]

Runz, on 16 November 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

3rd Person is needed as a spectator option, especially if they want to move down the eSports path, but not as a piloting option.

3rd person as a spectator can still be abused as you can have dead teammates provide you the information of whats over that ridge or behind that building. Besides whats the point of having a bobble head in your cockpit if people have the option to not see it

[GenDread]

Honestly, from what i see people are more worried about the "what If" of adding 3rd person... when it was said that 1st person is the piller of the game... adding 3rd person does not break a promise made... it takes more than 1 piller to make a structure. from what i can gleen 1st person IS the main focus of the game and 3rd person could just be a segragated option to a tutorial mode, free drops where nothing is gained or lost, or even private matches. I can see an advantage to this for "filming" and such and even for fun drops. I am a solid in the cockpit pilot and even if 3rd person was avalable i would not choose to use it. But i think that what really bothers the hard core players is that someone MIGHT use it to gain an "advantage" they choose not to use themselves.

Lets propose this to the Devs ... 3rd person view can not be used in "Ranked" matches and can not be used in Community Warfare. THIS alone should soothe the mass's ..... but it wont because too many people are worried about what "Might" happen. Sure ytou can bring up other games in the past that have changed their format but in all of those cases they did it because the game was failing and they tryed to make a change to promote a renewed intrest.

Now lets look at it from a different perspective ... OF COURSE the 3rd person people arn't speaking up .... this is a 1st person game and those people just arn't here LOL. look at past games Modern Warfare 2 a FPS, Huge game reliese right? Right under it was Gears of War a 3rd person shooter... using those 2 huge hits i can see why PGI would be interested in trying to grab that 3rd person shooter crowd.

Now personally I am a total 1st person guy, i did like Gears it was fun but the multi player was not my style.... however to this day there are many players on those 3rd person servers. Don't we all want the game to continue on? could this new income generated help speed things along?

[Runz]

But that's the point though; is it worth trying to bring in 3rd person to entice all those people who aren't playing MWO when you risk splitting the community or, even worse, alienate your core fanbase.

Why look at 3rd person now when there are so many other issues that need to be fixed; concentrate on those rather than adding a feature that almost none of your existing players want.

I know it sounds like I'm dead set against, whilst I would prefer not to see it in MWO I would probably end up using it if it was in game. The idea of banning it for competitive or community warfare is a good one - but surely when it comes in community warfare will be the main component of the game, if it's banned in that then why waste the development time on it?

There's a whole lot of ifs, buts, cans, maybes on both side of this argument; what I really believe the community needs is some solid information put out by PGI. Not just on 3rd person but in general really.

[GenDread]

I completly agree with you Runz. There is really no "need" for a 3rd person view in the game at all. I , myself and the company of Black Widows i lead, am dead set againced any form of 3rd person view. However, as a business, we as players need to understand that any company will do what it feels is best for that business. IF and its a big IF PGI feels like adding this option in game will incresse there income, you can guarentee it will happen. This is the main reason im trying to Promote a different approach than "NO DON'T DO IT!!" or threats of " I'LL QUIT THE GAME".

a few players screaming about quitting <i kow i know its more than a few... the polls show what, 2500 out of 450,000+?> will not sway a business analist from saying "ok we may lose 10% but the projected gain is 35% so we still gain 25%". the approach i would like to see us take is simple.

"OK your going to do it anyway we get that... but we would like it limited to NON-criticle matches. After all this is billed as a mech SIM not a 3rd person shooter". I think this approach will get a much better responce than trying to strong arm PGI with shouts and threats and foot stomping.

I know that the main focus of the game is 1st person, and i also know the Devs also feel this way. They all play as well. I'm sure Brian or Garth and even Russ dont want to see the game harmed in any way. I also know they have backers to please lol if this is a push for more income there is nothing we can do to stop it. however if we give the Devs something to show the backers from the community thats "Give and Take" concessions can be made. its happened before, it will happen again.

[TheMagician]

Dread, we don't know if PGI wants to do it at all. It could be IGP deciding for them what features will be in the game.

But what it comes down to for me, as I mentioned in the podcast, I think that PGI has more to worry about with regards to keeping first-time players interested, than a 3rd person mode.