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I Just Lost Money...on A Victory...where I Killed Most And Did Most Damage...for My Team...and Survived...with A Founder's Catapult


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#1 Killkie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:30 PM

I Just Lost Money...on A Victory...where I Killed most and did most damage...For My Team...and Survived...with A Founder's Catapult

This is fundamentally ******!

Ammo is too expensive. I am being punished for providing a strong support role for my team mates. I'm doing 800 points damage a match. Why do I have to be punished for being good and using ammunition?

When I win - even when I win - I lose money, now that I'm not a "premium" account.

I paid for the game. I helped this game get started. You're still in beta partially because I paid for this game, and everyone else who is a "founder". So when I say, and when others say, as it is often repeated on the forum, that the economy is brutal...when it can't even REWARD VICTORY...you need to listen.

"Play a trial mech" Screw the trial mechs! Trial mechs shouldn't even be in the game. No one wants to play a trial mech and I earned and paid for REAL mechs.

So should I just bin my cat and make some energy weapon hulk? I guess everyone should.

Edited by Killkie, 28 November 2012 - 10:53 AM.


#2 Ryvucz

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:34 PM

I have not encountered this problem, with or without premium time.

Have you team killed someone in each match?

Using the most expensive ammo/load out?

#3 stVillain

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:34 PM

Artemis?

if your spamming Artemis you're supposed to be loosing money...


PS.
if your spamming ARTEMIS
get a few extra tons of ammo on chasis and don't rearm...

P.P.S
I have a friend who runs an Artemis atlas. he has something like 1550 rounds of the stuff. he uses almost all those missiles every game. yes he does reck face. but his rearm bill is 150k. I see absolutely no problem with that bill.

Edited by stVillain, 27 November 2012 - 09:37 PM.


#4 Killkie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:41 PM

Bull! Why should energy weapon users get to play for free when we do the work? I feel double screwed because I have to pay and be dependable. Besides, we won. I shouldn't have to pay for a victory.

View PoststVillain, on 27 November 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Artemis?

if your spamming Artemis you're supposed to be loosing money...


PS.
if your spamming ARTEMIS
get a few extra tons of ammo on chasis and don't rearm...

P.P.S
I have a friend who runs an Artemis atlas. he has something like 1550 rounds of the stuff. he uses almost all those missiles every game. yes he does reck face. but his rearm bill is 150k. I see absolutely no problem with that bill.


#5 stVillain

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:03 PM

View PostKillkie, on 27 November 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Bull! Why should energy weapon users get to play for free when we do the work? I feel double screwed because I have to pay and be dependable. Besides, we won. I shouldn't have to pay for a victory.


lol, we all play for free... this being a f2p game.

Just so you are aware, by your response i'm assuming you do spam Arty missiles, the whole point of Artemis is that you sacrifice a ton of weight and have more expensive ammo so that your missiles hit more accurately. that's the trade off. Artemis is supposed to be used by Mechs that aren't boating LRMs but using LRMs or SRMs as a supplement to existing weaponry.

Just because you decided to use arty missiles in a completely different way doesn't mean you should be rewarded for it.


Do you think you've tricked the system? found some great loophole in the game balance that you can exploit?

Edited by stVillain, 27 November 2012 - 10:04 PM.


#6 Killkie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:28 PM

Oh look, I have to pay to get rid of them...wrong answer. If that is the "meta game", I'm screwed either way.

Regardless, why am I punished and energy weapons guys get off free? It screws up strategy completely.

View PoststVillain, on 27 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:


lol, we all play for free... this being a f2p game.

Just so you are aware, by your response i'm assuming you do spam Arty missiles, the whole point of Artemis is that you sacrifice a ton of weight and have more expensive ammo so that your missiles hit more accurately. that's the trade off. Artemis is supposed to be used by Mechs that aren't boating LRMs but using LRMs or SRMs as a supplement to existing weaponry.

Just because you decided to use arty missiles in a completely different way doesn't mean you should be rewarded for it.


Do you think you've tricked the system? found some great loophole in the game balance that you can exploit?


#7 Edustaja

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

Just use the 75% free rearm and stop whining :D
800 points of damage is quite a lot for indirect fire weapons anyway. At their hayday I was topping the chart with well over 1000 damage but with an insane rearm bill. That is the trade off, just pack more ammo and you're set.

Edited by Edustaja, 27 November 2012 - 10:37 PM.


#8 Deadoon

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

You are pretty much paying the cost of a very powerful weapons system, yes the ammo price is excessive current;y, but you deal the damage that can make the difference in a match to the point where you quite literally are paying in-game currency for a higher efficiency weapon system that gives you a clear advantage. They are using more budget weapons and are paying comparatively little for their costs due to they are taking into account ammo costs or working around them with free ammo.

#9 Voidsinger

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:47 PM

Welcome to economic warfare. I expect to see more posts like this, as founders hum and har over whether to hit that activate button (yeah, I did, the stress wasn't worth it).

The biggest losers (especially if they get rid of the 75% exploit) are going to be Artemis LRMs and Streaks.

Streaks because Streak launchers were always recognised as abusable when stacked (see the whole other thread on that).

Artemis users, because many think Artemis IV is for fire support, when what it does is tighten groupings for more precise kills when loads are guided in. Fire support spamming should just use regular LRMs and save cash.

In essence, it is the specialists with all the bling.

Some might point out that specialist vehicles are generally the best in their class. True.

However, look at the US military. Not the biggest, but the most powerful without question. That power comes with a steep price, since the US spend nearly as much on defence spending as the rest of the world combined.

Remember, the bling costs, and sometimes costs and costs.

#10 Rejarial Galatan

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:09 PM

I run 4ML, Ferro armor, and a Gauss Rifle with 8 Tons ammo on a Founders Atlas. I had a match where I got blown apart, partly because I was struck by the fact I was hearing the REAL voice of MechWarrior Carole Ruggier, and partly because I got jumped by 4 other assaults. I made 98k at match END, even with the partial REARM/REPAIR, I was in the RED. I lost money, over 100k to repair and rearm 1.5 TON Gauss Ammo, 2 ML, 1 Gauss, and my armor/structure. fee's are bloody high, way too bloody high, they need to come down. IF a FOUNDER cant even make a LITTLE on a defeat running minimal gear in a FOUNDER mech, I expect those in NON founder mechs with NON premium accounts to never get anywhere like this.

also, STANDARD engine and chassis.

#11 Voidsinger

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:18 PM

View PostRejarial Galatan, on 27 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

I run 4ML, Ferro armor, and a Gauss Rifle with 8 Tons ammo on a Founders Atlas. I had a match where I got blown apart, partly because I was struck by the fact I was hearing the REAL voice of MechWarrior Carole Ruggier, and partly because I got jumped by 4 other assaults. I made 98k at match END, even with the partial REARM/REPAIR, I was in the RED. I lost money, over 100k to repair and rearm 1.5 TON Gauss Ammo, 2 ML, 1 Gauss, and my armor/structure. fee's are bloody high, way too bloody high, they need to come down. IF a FOUNDER cant even make a LITTLE on a defeat running minimal gear in a FOUNDER mech, I expect those in NON founder mechs with NON premium accounts to never get anywhere like this.

also, STANDARD engine and chassis.


Someone else has started a suggestion post on armour cost compared to other items.

http://mwomercs.com/...to-armor-costs/

I suggest you have a read and support it, because I believe you'll find the majority of repair costs are armour related.

#12 Brickyard

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:33 PM

The big problem? I'll make the same amount of money as the guy doing 800+ damage simply by firing a small laser into each enemy mech once. The fact is, a heavier mech or big damage dealer should make more than they do. The reward for damage done does not balance out with the actual costs, meaning a large discouragement from running larger mechs that deal more damage, even though they are still are just as vulnerable as any other mech and effectively just as good as a light mech with all lasers.

You want canon reasoning? the same reason a founder or hero is paid more. They're known to be skilled and expected to get things done. If I bring an atlas to the table I expect my employer to pay me more than a commando pilot or I'd walk out.

#13 FerrolupisXIII

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:36 PM

i do think ammo should be expensive, but there are several problems.

WHY should we get %75 free? why not lower the cost by %75 and make us pay it all? its silly that 2 tons of ammo (1/4 of my 8 tons) of Artemis LRM's should cost 120k. its arbitrary and can easily be fixed. id be ok with 120 if it was all 8 tons.

another point raised. why should energy boats have no rearm costs? they're balanced against ballistics in game mostly. but the ballistic guys have to pay tens of thousands in ammo every match? for the economy minded, using all energy has no in game downside if you build right.

i dont want to make money hand over fist like we used to in closed beta. but weapons cost is no way to balance an item, it just restricts it from people unwilling to spend the money.

as a final statement, i do use Artemis on my LRM 20's. but im careful. i dont just spit out 1440 rounds without thinking. at the end of the day i like the results, and even on a loss ive been doing ok. learn to manage your missiles better, you dont need to spray 8 tons of ammo all over the field to get good damage numbers.

#14 Rejarial Galatan

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:37 PM

View PostBrickyard, on 27 November 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

The big problem? I'll make the same amount of money as the guy doing 800+ damage simply by firing a small laser into each enemy mech once. The fact is, a heavier mech or big damage dealer should make more than they do. The reward for damage done does not balance out with the actual costs, meaning a large discouragement from running larger mechs that deal more damage, even though they are still are just as vulnerable as any other mech and effectively just as good as a light mech with all lasers.

You want canon reasoning? the same reason a founder or hero is paid more. They're known to be skilled and expected to get things done. If I bring an atlas to the table I expect my employer to pay me more than a commando pilot or I'd walk out.

except, I had a case, where, as a founder, what I was paid wasnt enough to cover my losses...

#15 Brickyard

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:46 PM

View PostRejarial Galatan, on 27 November 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

except, I had a case, where, as a founder, what I was paid wasnt enough to cover my losses...


I'm actually agreeing with you. :[

#16 Kobura

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:01 AM

View PostRejarial Galatan, on 27 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

I run 4ML, Ferro armor, and a Gauss Rifle with 8 Tons ammo on a Founders Atlas. I had a match where I got blown apart, partly because I was struck by the fact I was hearing the REAL voice of MechWarrior Carole Ruggier, and partly because I got jumped by 4 other assaults. I made 98k at match END, even with the partial REARM/REPAIR, I was in the RED. I lost money, over 100k to repair and rearm 1.5 TON Gauss Ammo, 2 ML, 1 Gauss, and my armor/structure. fee's are bloody high, way too bloody high, they need to come down. IF a FOUNDER cant even make a LITTLE on a defeat running minimal gear in a FOUNDER mech, I expect those in NON founder mechs with NON premium accounts to never get anywhere like this.

also, STANDARD engine and chassis.


Why do you have Ferro and not Endo instead? Better in EVERY. SINGLE. WAY.

Gauss are half a million each. Expensive. Shots for Gauss are 2k a "PSHEW". You're driving the biggest mech with the most structure to repair.

Unfortunately I think you had that coming.

#17 Rushin Roulette

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:19 AM

OMFG... I love this thread... its so full of founders complaining about too high repair/rearm costs....

It would be even better if you guys were the ones preaching to non-founders that they would have to equip lowtech onto their mechs to be able to play economically...

Now that you guys are no longer getting the founders bonus (unless you opt to start the clock ticking) you are getting a dose of your own medicine.... just hilarious.

P. S. I havent started my founders time yet and have not lost CBills ingame yet, even tough Im mostly running an LRM boat ... I just dont spam like mad any more and stay well away from FF and Artemis (Although I do confess that I installed 1,4 HS and Endosteel which I might be removing soon as I have too much Ammo for my needs). Im not too happy with the CBill gain ca. 20K at a bad loss, but It is pretty balanced considering that im in a Heavy Mech with Ammunition rearming needs.

#18 Ewigan

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:32 AM

You guys are funny.
This behaviour was NORMAL for everyone who wasn't on premium time. Now your clock finally COULD start to tick and you go all "NOOOOO, WAY TO EXPENSIVE".
Seriously? Fire up your premium time and stop your whining. And when it's over:
Deal with it or buy some more. After all this IS a F2P game!

Edit: Btw, my Mechs run all the fancy stuff and even if i am completely destroyed and my team looses i still make money. The joy of being a Commando-pilot.... :P

Edited by Ewigan, 28 November 2012 - 01:33 AM.


#19 Voidsinger

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:32 AM

Now, now.

Everybody has some bling.

Almost everybody gets double heat sinks, simply because heat is the greatest enemy.
Anyone who can afford the crits gets Endosteel.
Neither makes any real difference to repair costs.

Ferrofibrous is only for the insane right now.

XL engines are essential to the survival of lights, and thus drive repair costs up for them.
For larger mechs, it is the expendables that make up the hefty costs (and armour under the current system).

I run Lights and mediums (up to the Dragon). I didn't have to activate, but it suited my roadmap better right now.

This is the time to do some serious planning peoples. Don't count on PGI making the economy any easier for you. Look to your running costs. Remember, you may be bidding for merc contracts and you don't want to lowball too much.

It's okay to have bling for special occasions, tournaments and the odd planetary invasion. However, if you choose to run Artemis, and carry 8 tons of ammo into every match, how much sympathy can we really have?

#20 stVillain

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:39 AM

View PostRushin Roulette, on 28 November 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

OMFG... I love this thread... its so full of founders complaining about too high repair/rearm costs....

It would be even better if you guys were the ones preaching to non-founders that they would have to equip lowtech onto their mechs to be able to play economically...

Now that you guys are no longer getting the founders bonus (unless you opt to start the clock ticking) you are getting a dose of your own medicine.... just hilarious.

P. S. I havent started my founders time yet and have not lost CBills ingame yet, even tough Im mostly running an LRM boat ... I just dont spam like mad any more and stay well away from FF and Artemis (Although I do confess that I installed 1,4 HS and Endosteel which I might be removing soon as I have too much Ammo for my needs). Im not too happy with the CBill gain ca. 20K at a bad loss, but It is pretty balanced considering that im in a Heavy Mech with Ammunition rearming needs.



I'm not actually complaining...

I have a phract-4x Guassphract I got cored a game ago and made 65k my repair cost was 74k.

but then I understand that i took a heavy mech loaded with some of the finest killing equipment into the match. then lost.
but the 3 guys i had a very easy time killing probably hate my phract a lot.

It's ok that i lost C-bills on that match. I took out a very expensive mech. I played the RISK/REWARD game and lost.

I think that's working as intended. I don't think that any player should be able to take out these massively expensive min/maxed custom builds out onto the field then expect not to pay for it in some way.

but this game is in BETA.

I do think that when we get the Inner Sphere conquest map in the game players will finally get a better sense of when they maybe should and shouldn't take out their best toys. I probably wont take out my gauss phract when i'm fighting for some periphery world with some minor passive bonus to House cred. I will probably take an Arty Catapult or my gauss phract when it's a capital world prize on the line.

Hoping that one day people will figure out that a balanced setup is much better to pilot then these min/maxed FPS builds we're getting today.





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