2028 replies to this topic

[Nebuzar]

Nauht, on 05 December 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

The problem isn't ECM - the problem is you. You relied too heavily on easy mode lockon weapons.

Now you have to learn how to shoot.

Slap on 6xSRM6, learn to shoot and then come to the revelation of how powerful that A1 build is.

BTW: I love ECM as is. Thumbs up.

My main battle mech is the CN9 which doesnt have much for launchers, I was making a point that ECM has taken the CPLT class of mech completely out of the game as a useable mech for long range support, which is it's class role. If you slap 6xSRM on the A1 then any noob can use it (just like the SSRM used to be). That setup takes no skill at all since all you have to do is run up on them and pull the trigger and watch the shotgun spray of missiles hit the target.

The BAP should be the counter to ECM but as it sits right now it's as useless as can be and might as well be removed from the game along with NARC if ECM is kept how it is.

ECM should have to be locked onto one target and activated to disable that mechs target lock, or used in AOE mode in order to cloak the team up to 300m without BAP or NARC and up to 450m with them. there should be no reason that a mech using ECM can't even be locked onto (not talking about missile lock) at times when it's inside 100m.

I play other games that use ECM and it can be a game changer on the battlefield if used properly, but it doesn't determine the outcome of the match from the start as it does in MWO. I know when I join a match that if we have no ECM we've lost and so far I've been right 100% of the time even with a team that communicates and uses tactics. On the flip side I've been on teams that run in all directions but since we have 4 mechs equiped with ECM we seem to win with little or no loses and that should not be the case.

ECM is a useful tool and should be kept in the game but it needs to be balanced out before too many new players deside that the game is too unbalanced and go else where, like to play Hawken.

[bardlord]

I have run about 140 missions since ECM came. Around 100 useing it in Raven and Commando, the rest I ran without, mainly running my founders Jenner and the new hero 'Phract. I run in PUGs and 4 man mostly.

I like it, but it needs some tweaking....this IS still Beta, if you won't understand that, please get off the boards and put your efforts into becoming the next God of computer game creation.

ECM has NOT ruined anything, it HAS changed a lot. Streaks still work, LRM's are still fine. Is the streak cat seriously hampered now ...yup (hooray I say), but its not totally useless....especially in premades.

I mainly run a jenner with top speed, 3 med and 2 streaks. During my trials I ran the Raven with same weapons and only slightly less speed (129 kph). MY streaks still work....just not all the time....even without COUNTER they work.....sometimes.

I will no longer address the "game is ruined" criers, they need to help improve the game, not tie up my reading and playing time wining without purpose...did I mention this is still Beta?

My observations/suggestions:

Under range X (180-300m) TAG and Beagle should cancel ECM for lock on purposes, so long as the TAG/Beagle unit keeps lock on AND stays in Range as well.

I like the idea of NARC cancelling ECM, but gettting destroyed after X damage to location NARC is attached to, and of NARC haveing MUCH longer duration in this instance.

Current ranges for ECM seem to be cannon and seem to be fine.

I only suggest this for the way groups are currently "picked": I suggest an "ECM signature" limit to groups. Assign a rating of 1 to lights, 1.5 to meds, and 2 to assaults and impose a rating limit of 3 or 4 for a group of 8 mechs. This solves the ubber ECM atlas group issue in premades, but still allows for great versatility in the use of ECM overall. eventually there will be more mission types and the need to break up into more than 1 massive group.

I mentioned I run a jenner most of the time, so I freely admit that enjoy ECM now simply for the reason of not suddenly having 160 LRMS launched at me as I turn the corner.

However, LRM's should have a way to get lockon (in an indirect fire way) at least when a (inside 200m) friendly unit has lockon and LOS to the target, BUT I could see a longer lockon time being required.

Lockon for streaks should be double or tripled, not eliminated by ECM. This makes everything well playable, and defenseable still.

time to go, will post more later.

Thanks Devs, the game is going in the right direction, and I enjoy it all. Sure I complain, I'm American, but it's all good so far.

Thanks again,

Bardlord

[MacSquizzy]

Overall I'm enjoying the update. I PUG almost exclusively and I'm liking the more cautious feel to the PUGs. I generally don't see groups rushing forward blind anymore, although there are always the special exceptions :

My only suggestion is to allow sensor range upgrades to be effective. I believe the current target range is 400m, which ECM cuts down to 200. BAP increases this by 25%, IIRC, so it SHOULD be 250m when dealing with ECM. The sensor range module increases by 15% (which I'm assuming is an additive increase, not multiplicative) which should put the total boost at +40%, making the ECM targeting range 280m for a full 100m "sweet spot" outside the ECM bubble for dedicated scouts.

That, plus the proposed upgrades to TAG, should make ECM a little less annoying. I personally love it, but I know missile fans are pretty worked up right now.

[AgroAlba]

Electric Mayhem, on 06 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

4. ECM on lights only.

That makes my Cicada sad.

[Snib]

Ronin13m, on 06 December 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I want to agree with you but I thought the rules stated that a streak used under the effect of an ECM functioned as a standard SRM. I will have to check my table top books when I get home.

http://www.sarna.net...ECM_Suite#Rules :

Quote

Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.

[General Taskeen]

The ECM "fix" is simple. Use balancing factors from previous Mech Warrior titles and Living Legends. Without having Active/Passive radar, simply reduce ECM LOS radar detection itself by a certain percentage or give it a range gap of 180m-600m gap where an ECM Mech will eventually show up on Radar (just slower than any other Mech that doesn't have ECM or a protective umbrella).

Once targeted, the actual lock for a SSRM or LRM (or insert whatever future Missile system is added later) takes 25% longer as it does now in the incredibly useless 20m targeting gap of 180-200m. Being inside an enemy ECM Bubble could reduce lock simply by 40-50%, but a lock can happen if the ECM Mech isn't careful. This would reduce the abuse of ECM Mechs brawling without consequence and return it as a scouting tool for team mates trying to get NARC secretly planted on enemies or TAGing them. This would also give a chance for stock builds to have a chance at existing without ECM/NARC/TAG support (the simple catch being they can't detect/target as fast).

Next, give TAG true indirect fire capability. Someone TAG's, another team mate dumb fires their missiles after setting them to indirect fire mode for SRM/LRM in the effective range envelop, and the missiles home in as long as the TAG user keeps a steady beam on target. This would be an effective counter vs. ECM, since the user would not have to to try to target them.

Give this ability to NARC, as per its 'canon' description, and keep NARC on target for infinity, the catch would be firing on an ECM mech or umbrella would have no effect (unless another ECM Mech shows up and uses ECCM mode). Another counter could be ER/PPC. If someone is Narc'ed, and an enemy/friendly shoots them with ER/PPC, the NARC beacon that was attached shuts off indefinitely.

Now true, rock-paper-scissor balance would return.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 December 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Ronin13m]

Snib, on 06 December 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...ECM_Suite#Rules :

Thanks

[Tango Alpha]

I like ECM but don't like how it is currently implemented. Yes there are counters to it, but in my experience (team play-high K:D members--not including me) I have found that it has reduced team play. Yes, I am a Cat driver, no, it is not a missle boat, but with the Cat C-1 you are too slow to be able to brawl. Before ECM I would stay within 500m of my spotters and we would move up. I would LRM there spots but they would move in and take the kill, teamwork at it's finest.

I have seen some ranting about how LRMs were OP but that was not my experience. When I used my Jenner to spot (pre-ECM) I had no problem evading missles. Now I find it pointless to use anything else but an ECM equiped mech. My Jenner can't maintain lock most of the time, and my Cat is useless. I have read peoples "advice" on how to "man up" and brawl or learn how to shoot, but you know what. I enjoyed my role as a support mech more than brawling. I can shoot and I can brawl but I would rather work with my team and do both brawl and LRM. I could also say to the contrary that if you can't avoid LRMs maybe you should learn how to use cover and avoid open areas.

Earlier in the day I posted (in frustration) that the way ECM is currently being used seems like a ploy to force players into buying MC to purchase an ECM mech. Yes there are other ways around this, but when you die every match because of a game change and have a life outside of gaming that prevents you from grinding out (point farming) I end up losing c-bills. It feels like a cash grab. I bought into the game earlier to buy my Cat, now it is close to useless and I won't be spending any real cash to buy something else.

To summarize this long post, don't eliminat ECM but fix it. It is OP and does not promote team play in my opinion. Please look to the TT implementation that has been mentioned on this thread a few dozen times. Seems like the way to go.

[Kesslan]

Speaking as someone who runs a Streak Cat, I've only in many matches been completely locked out twice by an ECM mech. Honestly if it starts being an issue I just swap out for standard SRM launchers, no big deal.

As to the LRMs, I run far far fewer builds with LRMs now as they are generally fairly useless now but you can still get the odd shot in, so when I do run LRMs I just carry a hell of a lot less ammo for them than I once did (In a cat for example I now only carry 2-3 tons) and just put mroe focus on other weapons. Not a huge deal though the Cat gets the short end of the stick as they tend to get chewed up very quickly in close range combat. Still you can be quite effective if you know what you're doing so I don't really see it as a huge issue.

That said far as I know streaks really should be able to be switched to direct fire mode and guided mode to deal with ECM so they are not completely useless as that 180m lock window doesn't appear to exist at all (I've been in the supposed sweet spot with streaks many times and been unable to lock on)

[Marcus Tanner]

Snib, that's the wrong ECM.

This game uses Guardian ECM, an older version that does not affect streaks in any way, shape or form.

Angel ECM comes out quite a bit later and is much more powerful, because in addition to blocking streaks it counts as two ECM suites for the purposes of overriding ECM or ECCM.

Not a Number, on 06 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Was I correct in assuming tabletop ECM does not actually make your mech undetectable and does not have any effect outside of its 180M bubble like it currently does in MWO? Because that's my biggest problem with the way PGI implemented it.

The short answer is that you are correct.

It can affect a C3 net if the ECM bubble get between a slave computer and a master computer, even if neither of them is in the ECM bubble.

MWO target data sharing is not C3 because it doesn't help you hit enemies as if they were point blank. The analogy isn't crazy, though. It's much closer to C3i (improved C3) than it is to normal C3 computers because the MWO mechs don't need a "master" unit in order to share data (a C3 net stops working if the master unit is destroyed).

[Stingz]

Remove the radar stealth, or at least reduce it to the ECM carrier only. Keep the increased lock time for teammates under the ECM bubble. 1-2 ECM(s) cloaking an entire team from radar seems to be a major issue.

Adding code to let Streaks dumb-fire under ECM scramble would help with the no-weapons problem (and be cannon).

Edited by Stingz, 06 December 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[JayVrb]

Maybe make one Beagle Active Probe nullify the effect of one ECM in disrupt mode... essentially making it a ECM in counter mode.

*shrugs

The only reason i say the above is because now BAP are super-useless.

[Stingz]

Vrbas, on 06 December 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Maybe make one Beagle Active Probe nullify the effect of one ECM in disrupt mode... essentially making it a ECM in counter mode.

*shrugs

The only reason i say the above is because now BAP are super-useless.

BAP was (and still is) useful for spotting targets outside of enemy radar/LRM range. It needs to reduce the effect of ECM (as stated before), by boosting detect range to 500m with BAP on. Then it will have more uses.

Edited by Stingz, 06 December 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Valaska]

Verminaard, on 04 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

I love ECM! no more seeing enemies wherever they are, tactics are valid again. You can actually catch people by surprise for once!

This is a great step forwards, and in itself a nerf to streaks. Helps balance greatly IMO.

Its not even for catching peopel by surprise, the most common thing has been an atlas heavy team, quite often fully atlas' just walkinga round 4 and 4 in disrupt and counter they change accordingly to their needs. Its really hampered tactics and playstyles, right now there's a set formula to metagame.

[Major_Crash]

After several days of play I now think ECM is not that bad. This is after removing all streaks from all mechs. Playing solo.

[AbusivePage]

After playing about 20 games across my mechs (Dragon - lasers and AC5, catapult - LRM boat), the ECM does provide the ability to 'cloak' your mechs around the enemy without their sensors from easily picking you up.

There are two issues I have now noticed with it, the first is that every team now needs an ECM, if you do not have an ECM on your team and the other team does, 9 times out of 10 you are going to lose. This removes the uniqueness of using the ECM for tactical options as every team needs one (or pref 2-3).

There should be a manual targeting option for targets that can be seen visually for LRM's, there is no need for a anti missile system now at all if you have an ECM, because you cant be targeted. I have been in a number of occasions where I can see a heavy mech in open space 400m in front of me but because of ECM he is essentially invisible. Maybe in this case you should allow laser tracking for LRM's as they are essentially useless to have on a mech now.

[Shadowkon]

i love the ecm, also i been hearing complants about it being over powering, no change you tactis no more point and shoot all the time because your a lrm boat, or to lazy to think for your self when the moment came, steak cats have to be in group formation,or with another for ecm counter, no more soloing with ecm around, to me it brings thinking back into the game, if i want a point and shoot i go play some other game system. theres plenty of no thinking games out there!

[Warklaw]

I could live with ECM as is, but I have heard and discussed with my team a few other options that could be interesting;

I tend to agree that ECM being both the advantage and the counter brings less diversity as teams start to rely and double up on the mechs that can carry it. As such I think by adding additional counters (albiet only partial ones) to the game it could facilitate more teamwork and diverseity of mechs (yes anytime you force increased teamwork you will impact PUGs, I beleive this can be overcome with tutorials and strategy suggestions but that is another topic). I also beleive these counters already exsist, they just dont interact with ECM in the right way.

TAG (Single Mech Counter)
Plan and simple I think the tag should work inside and out of ECM (perhaps it is shielded or has its own counter field allowing it to work). I think any mech tagged should then appear on radar to friends and be lockable by support. The balance for this would stem from having to be close, the limited transmisson time, the energy slot to carry tag, and the limitation of only being able to target 'one' mech at a time in the bubble of ECM. The benefit also increases team work with the Support and 'Tag Mech' having to work together, and will teach people to focus fire which is the greatest of tactics to learn first.

BAP (Radar Blackout Counter)
This should make mechs inside ECM and the overlaping bubble of BAP appear on friendly mechs radar, giving away their position. Unlike the TAG however this would not effect locking in any way, it simply nullifies the radar invisibility of the ECM protected mecs. With this there comes a need to carefully examine which mechs could run it to avoid overlaping ECM and BAP capable mechs, though allowing mechs that could run both could be restricted by limiting it to one or the other at a time. Balance should come from the need for the mech with BAP to get close to use it (range TBD) and be in peril, and only overcoming the 'radar invisibility' of ECM. I think it would best fit with medium or light mechs allowing them to return as capible scouts and report enemy locations (via the HUD), and with the restriction as to which mech can run it further diversify team make ups.

ECM Counter
I would keep this in, as the other two options now provide for other mechs to be involved in the tactics to overcome pieces of the ECM, but this would still be the MOST effective way to counter all the effects of ECM.

[Aresye]

Forgot to mention in my earlier post, but one thing people need to realize in this thread is not everybody that's irked by ECM uses LRM or streak boats.

I personally think ECM is op in its current state, due to a multitude of factors said earlier. I have 4 mechs. None of which have a single lock-on weapon.

[Thorqemada]

I have the feeling that ECM for whatever reason disables the Mechtextures on my Computer.
Every single time i play and there is a Mech with ECM in one of the Teams is have nothing but flat grey shades with Mechsilhouettes.

Also the Buildings and Rocks in Frozen City flicker between Grey shades and Textures while changing the point of view but remain stable as flat greys shades while not moving the point of view.

That game is no fun that way!

Win7 x64 + ATI HD6950 + Cat 12.10 in Fullscreen 1920x1200 High + Very High MWO settings.