2028 replies to this topic

[Xander Pappyson]

AbusivePage, on 06 December 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

After playing about 20 games across my mechs (Dragon - lasers and AC5, catapult - LRM boat), the ECM does provide the ability to 'cloak' your mechs around the enemy without their sensors from easily picking you up.

There are two issues I have now noticed with it, the first is that every team now needs an ECM, if you do not have an ECM on your team and the other team does, 9 times out of 10 you are going to lose. This removes the uniqueness of using the ECM for tactical options as every team needs one (or pref 2-3).

There should be a manual targeting option for targets that can be seen visually for LRM's, there is no need for a anti missile system now at all if you have an ECM, because you cant be targeted. I have been in a number of occasions where I can see a heavy mech in open space 400m in front of me but because of ECM he is essentially invisible. Maybe in this case you should allow laser tracking for LRM's as they are essentially useless to have on a mech now.

This will all change with they extend TAG to 750m. It will bring Long back to LRM. IMO.

[Carrioncrows]

Leave ECM as it is

Allow NARC and TAG to be hard counters and work through ECM.

Simple easy.

[MightyMeatShield]

This thread's original post for feedback.
http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-really-do/

PGI should specify clarify which ECM in TT they are implementing: Guardian or Angel. From the implementation notes in the Command Chair sub-forum prior to ECM going live, it is named Guardian, however in it's current in-game implementation it's more like Angel with it's affect on streaks and LRM locks. However in TT you can still fire streaks as regular SRMs while in the Angel's bubble.

On a related nomenclature tangent, PGI should rename "double heat sinks" to "improved heat sinks" or "enhanced heat sinks" since they are neither double the size nor double the efficiency.

Edited by MightyMeatShield, 06 December 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[Xander Pappyson]

Warklaw, on 06 December 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

TAG (Single Mech Counter)
Plan and simple I think the tag should work inside and out of ECM (perhaps it is shielded or has its own counter field allowing it to work). I think any mech tagged should then appear on radar to friends and be lockable by support. The balance for this would stem from having to be close, the limited transmisson time, the energy slot to carry tag, and the limitation of only being able to target 'one' mech at a time in the bubble of ECM. The benefit also increases team work with the Support and 'Tag Mech' having to work together, and will teach people to focus fire which is the greatest of tactics to learn first.

TAG is the counter, and it is going to get better. From the Commanders Chair...

As I said I would keep you up to date... going into test today... possibly live next patch...

1) AutoCannon projectile speeds increasing. AC/20 ~ 900m/s. AC/LBX10 ~ 1100m/s. AC/UAC/5 ~1300m/s.
2) PPC and ERPPC projectile speeds increasing to 2000m/s (AC/2 speed).

I've also looked into doing some tweaks with the NARC and TAG systems. So far I'm planning on increasing the time that a NARC beacon lasts from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.

These changes will go through testing and if it feels right, you'll see them next patch. [/color]

Edited by Xander Pappyson, 06 December 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Deadboy]

Overall I like what ECM is doing with one exception.

When an enemy unit is within the effected area of its own or its team's ECM you should still be able to target them if you have direct line of sight. I can understand not being able to receive target information but being at 201 meters from an ECM carrying enemy should not stop you from shooting them with LRMs or SSRMs when you have full viability to their mech.

[Padic]

I've been thinking some more about how ECM bothers me in its current form.

The abilities is provides are way too good for its size and weight - by which I mean, I cannot imagine that anyone who can equip it wouldn't equip it. Ever. I cannot think of any other weapon or piece of equipment that is such a no-brainer to equip. It is as heavy and spacious as an AMS system with one ton of ammo, and (arguably? heh) does a better job at protecting your mech from missile barrages. Even if ECM only provided its defensive bonuses to the mech carrying it, instead of all in the aura, I "suspect" people would still prioritize it over AMS in their builds (shoot down some incoming missiles until you run out of ammo vs only ever get missiles shot at you when you're TAG'd. Decisions are rough, man).

Additionally, I worry that ECM is too complicated. I'm not complaining about having a whole new set of rules to learn (asking a player to study their game isn't exactly an outrageous demand), but I do worry that one piece of equipment is responsible for bringing all of this functionality to the table.

I would love to see ECM broken down into a suite of equipment. Perhaps one grants the Umbrella of Stealth to allies near you, one applies the Aura of Obnoxious to enemies near you and a third performs the counter ECM role. This has the added benefit of removing the "dual-mode"ed nature of ECM, which I'm not a huge fan of. Instead they could have on-off switches (and, presumably a reason to ever turn them off). I might even experiment with restricting the number of these modules that a mech could legally carry - which would help to spread the power around a little bit.

Another issue I take with ECM is that the effects are so binary. You're in cover and perfectly safe or out of cover and not protected at all. You take a step forward, you're completely isolated from your team. You take a step backwards, you know everything again. This creates a very harsh punishment for getting out of position or letting a hyper fast, invisible mech sneak up on you. ECM would be a lot more palatable to me if the effects ramped up as you get closer to the enemy(or friend, assuming you're hiding under his umbrella) and decreased as you get further away. This would create a sort of warning track where there are mild effects warning you of an ECM's presence before you are well and truly dead.

That's all for now. Now that I have all of this criticizing out of the way, I can see if I'll learn to like it.

[Sevaradan]

ECM is great and needs no adjustment to its current form. Makes leading groups much more interesting.

[Osiris1975]

Reposting this from suggestion forum as I didn't realize there was an official thread for ECM feedback.


So I think ECM has changed the game for the better. At the same time, it does need a few more systems that can counter its effects. To that end, I propose the following:

-TAG needs two changes, one of which sounds like it is in testing already, which would be a range increase. This will make it practical for to be used against targets in an ECM bubble. The second change is an ease-of-use issue. Rather than force people to hold down the button to paint the target, it should be a toggle.

-Allow a ERPPC/PPC hits to disrupt neutralize ECM function until the mech hit by the PPC cycles its power (shutdown/startup). Alternatively, the disruption could last for some set amount of time. This creates added value for PPC weapons, and again promotes teamwork as PPC-carrying mechs can help their LRM friends out. For PUG players, they'll be able to create combination PPC/LRM boats and have a shot at dealing with ECM themselves, where cooperation isn't as good as premades.

I think these two changes will go a long way in giving all players a chance to counter ECM.

Edited by Osiris1975, 06 December 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Sears]

Leave ECM as it is, just start adding all the other information warfare modules that were in the early dev blogs.

8v8 is cool, though, tbh it basically boils down to 6 DD-Cs and 2 commandos for a win. Ecm Blob and back cap. And the classic way to counter a blob was LRMS, but they don't work so well any more.

ECM is less of a requirement and less encountered in PUG games, but is mainly used by synced dropped groups to pug stomp.

I welcome the introduction of information warfare, but kinda wish for the other gear too, to make things a bit more interesting.

Once the PPC has the EMP function, make that do something to ECM, perhaps a small chance to disrupt.

Edited by Sears, 06 December 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Harrison Kelly]

Xander Pappyson, on 06 December 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

TAG is the counter, and it is going to get better. From the Commanders Chair...

As I said I would keep you up to date... going into test today... possibly live next patch...

1) AutoCannon projectile speeds increasing. AC/20 ~ 900m/s. AC/LBX10 ~ 1100m/s. AC/UAC/5 ~1300m/s.
2) PPC and ERPPC projectile speeds increasing to 2000m/s (AC/2 speed).

I've also looked into doing some tweaks with the NARC and TAG systems. So far I'm planning on increasing the time that a NARC beacon lasts from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.

These changes will go through testing and if it feels right, you'll see them next patch. [/color]

I just don't know this is going to be true. Look, I love TAG, even in its current state, and I've had one on my LRM Mech for at least a month now. With these proposed buffs, I can't justify ever possibly trying to use TAG at 750 meters.

Food for thought:
1) At 750 meters, it takes less than a second for a gauss shot to hit you. If you need longer to line up a shot, that's fair, but once the shot is fired 1) your enemy has very little warning and 2) you can back away immediately.
2) At 750 meters, LRMs will take about 3 seconds to reach from launcher to target. At this range, you must keep your laser on the target for the ENTIRE duration of the flight. This is three times the standard burn time of a Medium Laser, IIRC, and you can't take the pipper off your target at all. Also, your Mech must be completely exposed for 3 times the time required to snipe someone with a Gauss/Large Laser.
3) As soon as you fire, your enemy immediately gets a notification of incoming missiles, during which all he has to do is duck behind cover or otherwise break the TAG lock.

How is this exactly going to help LRMs at long range again?

[Tikkamasala]

Having played a lot of matches since the ECM-patch i am still loving the new play style. Please do not change the way ECM works. TAGing, direct fire and ecm usage are enough of a counter to ecm. I can see the proposed longer range on TAG as a good addition though.

[Tilon]

Sarna.net:

Quote

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters.

When this becomes somewhat true, ECM will be balanced. Currently, it is jamming mechs far outside of its effective range, which makes no sense.

What, is the enemy mech somehow jamming itself to prevent LRMs from locking on at 800 meters distant?

Current implementation makes no logical sense whatsoever.

The only problem with ECM right now is that it is preventing locks outside of its sphere of influence. Make LRMs able to lock on by hovering the cursor even if you don't have them targeted with 'R'. I think that change alone would balance everything out.

I don't even run an LRM boat, this is just common sense. If the LRM boat is outside of 200 meters, the ECM is not jamming the mech. There is no reason it shouldn't be able to lock onto your noise broadcasting mech, or your heat sig, and fire on you.

ECM weighs 1.5 tons. Pound for pound, it is currently the most effective equipment in the game bar none. A heatsink and a half gives you a jammer and sensor cloak in the same package?

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Drawfire]

I think what I am running into is that ECM does too many things at once. It simply should be 2 different modules. ECM allows groups of light mecs to manuver with very low odds of being spotted. ECM weakens SreakSRMs and makes LRMs nearly impossible to use unless you are playing with friends on voice-chat that can TAG for you. ECM makes team communications without voice-chat basically impossible. Put together, this is simply too much for a single module that only a few mechs can have.

1. Team cloak. A personall lock-cloak is an interesting module, especially for fast mecs. Group cloaking is ok, but very powerful if only on one team.

2. Missile protection. Streak SRMs needed a good counter. ECM gives that. LRMs were already rather underpowered. ECM nerfs them into the ground. Maybe reduced accuracy would be a better effect. Maybe LRMs should still work while the launching mech has line-of-sight. Maybe putting in a beacon that counteracts jamming for 15-25 seconds (NARC like) would work. Allies using TAG doesn't work unless they are on voice-chat with you. Someone has to say, "shoot now". There are options.

3. Team communication blocking. This really should be removed. This is a random matched online game. Entire teams are not going to be on voice chat. This isn't a ballance issue, this is game-play issue.

I have seen several other viable changes to the system in this thread, so we will see what is chosen. I will certainly put off buying an LRM mech until a solution has been picked and implemented.

[Revorn]

ECM-Counter with TAG or evtl NARC? Rofl

[wanderer]

I've put my opinions in more detail in the Suggestions forums: http://mwomercs.com/...oser-to-sanity/

But right now, ECM is overkill. It doesn't just get rid of Streak guidance (good), but it renders them unable to fire at all (bad).

It doesn't just make LRMs harder to fire (good), it makes them "TAG or nothing".

It doesn't just make targeting data harder to get (as it should), it renders it impossible to target 'Mechs at all at anything save extremely close range (read, you could fire an MPL for full damage) and butchers IFF, meaning PUGs often can't even tell who their team is in a close melee.

Extending TAG range as a boost to counter ECM is bogus, as Harrison Kelly notes. Keeping a beam on anything fast is impossible as it is at that range, never mind lagshields or if you're moving. If it wasn't, I could already have been coring scouts with quad ERLL's from that distance!

[Nightcrept]

ECM opinion poll.

http://mwomercs.com/...m-balance-poll/

[WarOrk]

If TAG is a (the) supposed counter for ECM - AND - if it is extended to 750+ range, then we're talking. HOWEVER just as ECM is passive, so should TAG be - meaning it should automatically be aligned with your reticle and "always on" - or I shouldn't have to waste a precious button (and associated finger) to activate it and keep it "firing" at all times to obtain my needed lock.

At least this makes sense as TAG is OPTICAL (laser designator) and ECM is electrical (jammer). I can't think of any electrical jamming that can disrupt light...

There still needs to be a reduction in the radius of ECM - if the counter is specific to one target only, then ECM shouldn't be able to encompass and entire map grid or more. Enough to cover maybe the equipped mech and one or two other tight-knit buddies who while gaining the ECM "cloak" lose maneuverability as they are forced to virtually hug each other to retain the cloak.

[WarOrk]

On the same token, NARC needs to also counter ECM 100% for the "NARC-ed" mech during the duration of the NARC. The "logic" behind this is that a NARC beacon is a very high energy "HERE I AM" electronic squeal that burns through ECM and it's own limited power supply in say 20-30 seconds, but for that 20-30 seconds, it secures a target lock on it's host.

ECM has a ton of potential, and we are in BETA, so I'll tolerate this temporary timeframe in which all non-ECM mechs are rendered useless and the community learns to re-incorporate what has up to this point been a useless tool (NARC) as an effective counter, and thus in turn reducing the number of ECM-equipped mechs on a drop.

Yesterday being day 2 of ECM I saw some 8v8 group tactic changes, and went from 1 win, 8 losses on Tuesday to about 8-8 on Wednesday - which is fair, but there's still an over-abundance of Atlas D-DR's and other ECM mechs. Since I happen to have in my mech stable Catapults, Awesomes, Jenners along with a Wang and the full 4 founders mechs - I don't have a single chassis capable of equipping ECM and have basiucally become fodder on the field in ay of those chassis variants, except for the k2 Gauss Cat.

Pretty crappy to have invested HUNDREDS of dollars into the game, played countless hours only to be limited to one mech... or forced to invest more $ and time to join the ECM bandwagon.

[Damocles69]

leave ecm where it is. buff bap and tag

[Ixis]

I'd just like to say that I think the dev's have got the balance just about right with the ecm,it does negate the problems of streak cats if you have one fitted which is all for the good and helps prevent multiple missile boats from nuking half your team while hiding behind cover at 1000m.Also once the ecm mech moves more than 180m away from the rest of the team they become visible again,which if you happen to be running a ecm scout thats what you should be doing anyway.The ecm pod doesn't protect you from direct fire so once the other team gets eyes on then you become vulnerable, I like the fact that scouting isn't a suicide mission anymore and the enemy doesn't just flatten your from range with lrm's and the first time I had a streak cat try to run away from my raven I laughed so much I nearly missed killing him.Having said that having ecm fitted does make you the prime target for the other team and if they have an ecm mech your visible when he gets close enough so it's by no means a god-mode addition,as for light ecm mechs being even more deadly to assalt mech's,tell me about it.I own 3 atlas's,beam weapons still work on ecm mechs and if he doesn't have ecm then so do your SSRM's.ECM is a game changer,it makes people think about how to work around the problem and taken out the mindless "mash the missle launch button" style of play that we have been seeing and steered the game back towards rewarding skillfull play.HUZZAR