88 replies to this topic

[WardenWolf]

So I have played with ECM now as a PUG and in a group - several matches both ways - and ECM seems to be overpowered to me. It has too many effects, an insufficient number of counters given the level of power it has, and completely shuts down a lot of aspects of the game that we had become accustomed to and which made sense (calling targets by letter assignment, for example). I know many people like / love it, and equally many seem to hate it - so I think some common ground should be the goal.

With that in mind, I'd like to open a discussion about what people think ECM *should* do (regardless of what it does now). Here are the sources on what ECM does in BattleTech, advanced BattleTech rules, and some notes about it from other sources (previous video games):

Master Rules: http://goo.gl/61asD (pg 136)

Advanced Rules http://www.scribd.co...ticalOperations (pg 99-100)

Sarna Description: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM_Suite

Given the above, here is what I think ECM should be capable of:

- In normal operation, it would make a 'bubble', circular in shape, extending 180 meters out from the ECM-equipped mech

- Any enemy mechs within that bubble would be cut off from sharing targeting data, but their own targeting would work just fine

- Any NARC beacons latched on to friendly mechs within the bubble would be nullified while within the bubble

- Artemis IV on enemy mechs (inside or outside the bubble) would not help (increase hit chance) when fired at friendly mechs inside the bubble

- Beagle Active Probes and modules on enemy mechs would not get their increased targeting distance or info speed vs friendly mechs inside the bubble

The effects described above are all perfectly canon in terms of the TT game. In advanced rulesets, a secondary mode for ECM where it counters enemy ECM is also available, and having that sort of toggle (as it is in MWO now) seems fine. There is also a 'ghost target' option in those advanced rules as a third ECM mode, but I'm not sure how that could really be implemented in MWO effectively.

I would be happy with ECM as stated above, but if you *really* want to make it more powerful (it is *far* more powerful currently) I could see doing one or the other of the following too:

- Halve the target lock distance required for mechs inside the bubble (it is currently at something like 1/4, which is the bulk of what makes it so powerful at the moment)

- Double the time it takes to get missile lock and target data details (something similar is in the game now as well, in combination with the many other effects)

In a less powerful mode like this, the counters to ECM could stay as being TAG and ECM. If they keep it more powerful, I think having BAP at least do a partial counter (maybe increase the target lock distance somewhat?) could be a viable option as well.

So, what do you all think about these ideas? Please try to keep things civil, and more productive than simply 'it is great now'. Thanks in advance!


Dear Mods: I am hoping to generate community discussion with this thread, not simply to state my own suggestion (though that is part of it). As such, I respectfully request that it be left in the Discussion section of the forums for greater visibility - but understand that moving it (or not) is not my decision to make.

Edited by WardenWolf, 06 December 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

I actually really like the aspect of the current implementation of ECM that makes it so you can't target mechs from range. I think it adds a lot of tactical complexity to the scouting portion of the game.

However, I think that if you are close enough to target the enemy, you should be able to do so with guided missiles.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Agree that ECM needs work. I'm not a guided missile user or an ECM user so I don't have any insight in to what kind of adjustment it needs, but it has tweaked the dynamic of the game a bit too far. It was stated to be a 'game changer', and that's cool, but it's a bit too much at the moment.

[WardenWolf]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 06 December 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Agree that ECM needs work. I'm not a guided missile user or an ECM user so I don't have any insight in to what kind of adjustment it needs, but it has tweaked the dynamic of the game a bit too far. It was stated to be a 'game changer', and that's cool, but it's a bit too much at the moment.

I very much agree with you, but would be curious from the standpoint of someone who hasn't used ECM much (if at all) - what have you had to change about your behavior? Are you sticking close to mechs that do have it? How are you managing targeting - just visually, or have you found that some mechs which stray from ECM are still easy prey? The more we can get a consensus on what people dislike, the better we can give PGI feedback

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

WardenWolf, on 06 December 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

I very much agree with you, but would be curious from the standpoint of someone who hasn't used ECM much (if at all) - what have you had to change about your behavior? Are you sticking close to mechs that do have it? How are you managing targeting - just visually, or have you found that some mechs which stray from ECM are still easy prey? The more we can get a consensus on what people dislike, the better we can give PGI feedback

I've always tried to stick close to friendly assault mechs, an ECM Atlas is something I really want to see on my side at the start of a match. Visual targeting is fine on Frozen City: Night and Caustic Valley, but enemy ECM gets really really frustrating on the low visibility maps like regular frozen and forest. I already don't like having to use thermals, and taking away HUD info really compounds the frustration.

Also, not being able to tell where or if what you are shooting at is damaged is I think an unintended side effect of the current implementation at short range. That is something that actually strips away a layer of tactical depth rather than adding more.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 06 December 2012 - 01:05 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

PGI's implemantation of ECM is exceptional. Don't **** with it.

[BlackSquirrel]

In layman... "Make your **** not work!"

Would you rather have a smaller radar profile or straight jack people's radar? Because real ECM scrambles it, adds/spoofs targets. Jams it, redirects it.

The term ECM can mean a lot of things... Radar masking I dont think is that big of a deal (for non LRMS) Should it function as a bubble? Well kinda because that's what jamming is.

See how it works after a couple of weeks time to adjust because people are so use to red triangles showing them everything rather than scanning.

[Alfred VonGunn]

The only thing that I think really needs to change is the Reduction in range...

My Suggestion would be this...

vs a mech without BAP or a Sensor mod range increase... Make it 1/2 the distance not 25%

Vs a mech with either a BAP or Sensor Mod or both.. Allow them to target thing sat 50% of their EXTENDED range.... This still gives the ECM mech lost of cover..

Heck even make it so that each additional ECM covering a target mech reduces that range an extra 10% from the total..

So if a Mech was in the bubble of 3 friendly ECM it would be basicly like now.. vs a standard mech.. But if he was in only a single bubble it would be a 400m targeting range..

This is just tossing some ideas out there is all...

I also liked someones posted idea else where on teh forums about a longer range TAG... I would say though that rather then a new TAG .. a New Module.. That extends the range of installed TAG by 50-75% .

[Tastian]

@WardenWolf

I was going to make a write up about ECMs in MWO vs TT rules myself but you've done it perfectly. I 100% agree with what you've said and although I'm excited someone else thinks the same I'm disheartened by the fact that this will never happen.

Edited by Tastian, 06 December 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[WardenWolf]

Alfred VonGunn, on 06 December 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

The only thing that I think really needs to change is the Reduction in range...

My Suggestion would be this...

vs a mech without BAP or a Sensor mod range increase... Make it 1/2 the distance not 25%

Vs a mech with either a BAP or Sensor Mod or both.. Allow them to target thing sat 50% of their EXTENDED range.... This still gives the ECM mech lost of cover..

Heck even make it so that each additional ECM covering a target mech reduces that range an extra 10% from the total..

So if a Mech was in the bubble of 3 friendly ECM it would be basicly like now.. vs a standard mech.. But if he was in only a single bubble it would be a 400m targeting range..

I think this idea a lot, except for the cumulative effect. That would just make it more likely that *everyone* runs ECM mechs, instead of only 2-4 per team of 8. The increased target distance alone may be all that is needed to really balance things out, though, if they don't want to take away any of the effects themselves.

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 06 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Also, not being able to tell where or if what you are shooting at is damaged is I think an unintended side effect of the current implementation at short range. That is something that actually strips away a layer of tactical depth rather than adding more.

I very much agree with this sentiment!

[armitage]

Reduce sphere of influence to 150m, not prevent lock ons but increase lock on time to maybe 5 or 6 seconds, fix BAP so it can detect the ECM mech at 300m and mechs under its influence at 200m, also make BAP mechs always viewable by other teammates. That would be an interesting start to tweak from.

[MightyMeatShield]

I would support WardenWolf's suggested change. It is much more in line with TT implementation of Guardian ECM does. ECM currently as implemented in MWO is more akin to Angel ECM than Guardian ECM, however even in TT Angel ECM removes the guaranteed hit/lock on ability of Streaks but the TT rules for Angel ECM still allow streaks to be fired as normal SRMs.

I'd also be OK with ECM locking out the targetting info within the bubble but that can be counteracted by having a BAP.

[F lan Ker]

S!

My only gripe with ECM is that it has no restrictions on obstacles or terrain like the radar has, the system it was designed to counter among C3 comms. It is still a device emitting signals of a certain wave length to counter and disrupt the source using the same wave length. What makes the ECM waves magically better that they go thru mountains and buildings while the radar does not do so(realistic btw).

Implementation of ECM in this game is too simplistic and a guaranteed way of blocking everything from the other side unless they use the same mechanic to counter yours = forces to run as much ECM as possible which gets boring and limits the Mech composition a bit. Sure some do fare better with a mixed setup, but if a really good team maximizing the ECM and team work = stomped like a bug.

So ECM could use some restrictions like terrain and buildings blocking it as it does to radar. ECM should require LOS and as such you could have "blind spots" to utilize for maneuvering and scouting. Making it a bit more challenging to use and gives possibility to counter it without ECM.

EDIT: And if you really want to nitpick the height of the transmitter from the ground would also have an impact, not much in this scale but some nevertheless. The higher it is the better as it could "see" over lower obstacles. You get the idea.

Just my .02€

Edited by F lan Ker, 06 December 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[BumbleBee]

I haven't played any games since the patch, so I cant comment on how it is now, only on what I have read on the forums, but this is how i would like it to work. Disclaimer; NORMAL = unbuffed by modules/other equipment.

o Reduce enemy sensor range to around 1/4-1/3 for all friendly units within 180M bubble.

o BAP allows targeting to 1/2-2/3 NORMAL range. Spotter with BAP can close to with 1/2-2/3 normal range (still pretty close to enemy and in LOS making it risky) and target for boats. Only "R" locked target is displayed to spotters teamates. TAG works as is, NARC doesn't work at all.

o Enemy Missile lock time doubled. Basically, if boats lose lock during flight, the chances of reaquiring full lock are slim, meaning pretty much all salvo's with a lost lock are... lost.

o Target data takes double NORMAL time.

o ECCM works as it does now.

ECM would still be VERY strong, and BAP reduces it's effect enough to be worth the weight for scouts to mount.

Edited by bumblebee, 06 December 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[WardenWolf]

armitage, on 06 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

... also make BAP mechs always viewable by other teammates. That would be an interesting start to tweak from.

Hmm, that is an interesting idea! If BAP could be toggled on / off I could see it making sense, otherwise I think it is probably too much of a downside to have and expect people to ever use it. Maybe just make mechs with (enabled) BAP detectable at a further difference? This reminds me of 'active' and 'passive' radar modes in older MW games. Getting a little off the topic of ECM, though

[WardenWolf]

Vassago Rain, on 06 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

PGI's implemantation of ECM is exceptional. Don't **** with it.

Now see, I understand that some people feel this way - but please be more constructive in the feedback! Why should it stay this way? Why should it have all the attributes it does? Should there be no additional counters to it?

[WarOrk]

Disclaimer - I haven't read EVERY post in this topic!

The way I view ECM is that it is part of a pool of tools available for pilots to add to their 'mech to enhance their battlefield usefulness or contributions to a lance/team. That said, much like Rock/Paper/Scissors (or in this case add in Lizard/Spock) for every tool, there should be a counter-tool, or as in the 5-way R/P/S/L/S, each tool defeats 2 others, and in turn is defeated by two others.

Currently as it stands, ECM trumps EVERYTHING else, except a very chort range TAG, which only benefits one mech. The ECM bubble encompasses an entire map grid (easily all 8 mechs in a drop) yet only TAG equipped mechs can counter it, but only for themselves. Yes an ECM mech running ECCM can counter it, but the problem again lies with the 180 radius and battles have turned into "bubbles" of 8 mechs running into "bubbles" of 8 other mechs across the battlefield. Woe unto ye fool mech who slips outside the bubble, for you shall be pummeled instantly unto scrap!

So in essence, ECM has turned a game of Rock/Paper/Scissors/Lizard/Spock into Rock/Paper/Scissors/Lizard/NUCLEAR BOMB.

If you look at the electonic warfare options:

BAP/ECM/TAG/NARC/Missile Locks, here's how'd I'd set things to counter ECM:

ECM beats Locks and BAP, but in turn is defeated by TAG & NARC (which "burn through" ECM jamming to expose their target. For TAG, only for the TAG equipped mech, but NARC shoudl be for entire team for the duration of NARC's squeal.

This leaves regular vision, night vision and IR to still see ECM mechs, but no "free" target aquisition. Thus in skilled hands, ECM can allow sweeping maneuvers for pincers, blindsides etc, yet can be countered with appropriately equipped mechs.

As it stands now, drops are just ECM fests of Atlas D-DR's and Ravens/Cicadas/Commandos.

The rest of us non ECM mechs have become fodder.

[WarOrk]

I certainly understand why so many people LIKE the ECM as it is, for those who DO run ECM mechs now can remain completely unidentified on a map. Not necessarily "hidden" but very hard to be called for focus-fire. If we can't say "focus fire on Alpha" because "alpha" cannot be identified, then it is likely they will last longer in the match.

Yes, of course they can still be shot at with free-fire/visual aiming, but in a team v. team match, calling focus fire is a major component of victory. So long as one team has more ECM mechs than the other - AND/OR more weight (there is currently no weight balancing in 8 drops), 9 of 10 matches they'll win simply because focus-fire is dropped.

Those of us running non-ECM mechs in turn become the target OF focus fire and die horribly and quickly as soon as our ECM shield is gone, or we accidentally slip outside the 180 bubble, or the volume of enemy ECM outweighs ours and they can burn through ours with ECCM on some mechs, while retaining ECM on some.

I for one and done with team drops until modified as neither I nor my team should be forced to "buy" a specific mech just to balance a secondary tool in the game and until we do, being usually outnumbered 2:1 or more in ECM equipped mechs is just poop.

I've literally been in a drop of all 8 opponents running Atlas D-DR's and another with 7 ECM Ravens. It was actually very "cool" and unique to have the Ravens pop up out of nowhere and surround my Awesome and rip me to shreds with virtually no warning, but it has also made me painfully aware of how non being ECM equipped, or at least inside the bubble makes the game nothing but a battle between a blob of 8 mechs chasing around another blob of 8 mechs. (blob being 8 mechs huddled inside the 180 ECM radius)

ECM has a ton of potential and is needed, just not as-is.

[Clubs]

It should not be a Null Signature System.

That is something that should come later, cost more, and have disadvantages.

It should stop Artemis missiles from grouping tighter, it should take longer for LRMs and SSRMs to gain a lock but it should still be possible with LOS from the missle boat. Tag should decrease the ammount of time for lock but not counter the ECM's effect on Artemis spread.

It should nullify the effect of BAP and NARC (which is usless compared to Tag anyway, who uses Narc now?)

I'm baffled why so many think it is perfect. And before anyone says so I've never used a Streak Cat, and I rarely used LRMs.

Hell my founders Jenner has been running with 4 ML and 2 SRM4's for awhile now.

I have 16 Mechs and most of my builds are Laser/Ballistic, my A1 Had 6 SRM 6 + Artemis.

If they don't change it then I hope they at least stick to the TT idea that the Clans version of Guardian ECM functions exactly the same as the IS version save for being lighter and taking up less crit space.

If any 8 man team thinks that ECM is not over powered then I challenge them to run some matches in 8 man with NO ECM mechs and see how they fare. If their deaths and win loss is about the same then perhaps it is not over powered.

Clubs

[wanderer]

What to do? Here you go.

http://mwomercs.com/...oser-to-sanity/