88 replies to this topic

[WardenWolf]

WarOrk, on 06 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I for one and done with team drops until modified as neither I nor my team should be forced to "buy" a specific mech just to balance a secondary tool in the game and until we do, being usually outnumbered 2:1 or more in ECM equipped mechs is just poop.

That makes me sad, but I understand your sentiment.

WarOrk, on 06 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

ECM has a ton of potential and is needed, just not as-is.

Agree completely

Edited by WardenWolf, 06 December 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[WarOrk]

Just did 6 solo (PUG) drops and OMG - there was NO ECM whatsoever in 2 of the 6 - JOY! And int he other 4, only once did more than one mech per team have ECM. DOUBLE JOY!

This is compared to 8v8 drops where literally 4+ per team will have ECM and it turns into a 180-meter gaggle (blob) of mech versus another 180-meter blobl of mechs running into each other and fighting in a 180-meter melee - rendering any long-range weapons pointless, and free-fire SRMs as deadly to friendlies as foes because there are so many mechs crowded into such a small bubble of battle.

DEFINITELY sticking with solo for the near future until some ECM changes in place, or my regular team is in DIRE need of that must-have 8th player to make a full8-man drop. When I go, I'm taking my cheapest, laser only mech to mimize repair bills in team mataches simply because unless we outnumber their ECM, or have 8 Atlas D-DR's, it is a loss for whomever has less ECM... period.

I cannot believe that solo/PUG matches have become more "fair" and more enjoyable than dropping with friends.

But as I said before, I can now really see why so many people LIKE ECM, for in a PUG drop with minimal coordination, those with ECM are able to either "ghost" around the map as they please and chosse when/when not to engage, or will find themselves surrounded/shielded by those seeking the ECM protection... thus turning ECM PUG's into everyone's friend.

So for PUG drops, the love is rampant for the occasional ECM. For team, there is nothing but disgust at the fact it turns into team with most ECM wins.

So many good ideas on how to tweak ECM (longer lock-on times, things that can counter it effectively OUTSIDE the damn 180 bubble etc.) that I'm certain it will change... just nowhere near fast enough for me.

[SpiralRazor]

ECM, in Mechwarrior Online, should disable TAG/BAP/ARTEMIS/Narc Beacons and C3 whens its implemented, in a range of 180 meters around the equipped mech. Tagging into an ECM screen will work, no but Artemis bonuses will apply.


ECM should increase lock on times, for your mech only, by 100%

ECM should be countered by, IN PART, by Beagle Active Probe.... increasing lock on times by 50%.

[WardenWolf]

WarOrk, on 06 December 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Just did 6 solo (PUG) drops and OMG - there was NO ECM whatsoever in 2 of the 6 - JOY! And int he other 4, only once did more than one mech per team have ECM. DOUBLE JOY!

I have noticed that ECM is less prevalent in PUGs the last day or so, maybe the new-factor is wearing off? I still always & only run my ECM'd Atlas D DC for now... just to be safe, as I never want to be at a no-ECM disadvantage against the other team if they happen to be running it.

Edited by WardenWolf, 07 December 2012 - 08:17 AM.

[ReD3y3]

same thing it does now

I like the way PGI put it in

[Evilsmirk]

WardenWolf, on 06 December 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Given the above, here is what I think ECM should be capable of:

- In normal operation, it would make a 'bubble', circular in shape, extending 180 meters out from the ECM-equipped mech

- Any enemy mechs within that bubble would be cut off from sharing targeting data, but their own targeting would work just fine

- Any NARC beacons latched on to friendly mechs within the bubble would be nullified while within the bubble

- Artemis IV on enemy mechs (inside or outside the bubble) would not help (increase hit chance) when fired at friendly mechs inside the bubble

- Beagle Active Probes and modules on enemy mechs would not get their increased targeting distance or info speed vs friendly mechs inside the bubble

How is this any different than how it currently works? I apologize, but I fail to see how your base "fine-tuning" changes anything from how the current ECM functions.

WardenWolf, on 07 December 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

I have noticed that ECM is less prevalent in PUGs the last day or so, maybe the new-factor is wearing off? I still always & only run my ECM'd Atlas D DC for now... just to be safe, as I never want to be at a no-ECM disadvantage against the other team if they happen to be running it.

This is most likely becuase units are leveling the non-ecm variant in random drops a opposed to in thier 8 man teams.

Edited by Evilsmirk, 07 December 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[WardenWolf]

Evilsmirk, on 07 December 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

How is this any different than how it currently works? I apologize, but I fail to see how your base "fine-tuning" changes anything from how the current ECM functions.

Quite a few things are different, actually. The main one would be that if you are outside of the 'bubble' you would still be able to target things inside it - you just wouldn't be able to benefit from Artemis, BAP, NARC, or any shared data from friendly units stuck 'inside' the bubble.

Right now, anything in the bubble is completely invisible to sensors until it gets 200m away, which makes targeting for a number of purposes (damage checks, calling focus-fire, etc) impossible. This is the main thing I feel ECM should not be doing, as there is nothing in the way the rules / lore for Battletech that seems like it should have that. ECM is supposed to counter the other advanced electronics packages, that is all.

[Snuglninja]

The difference is no decrease lock time just distance. No cloak you still show on radar just ability to lock.Inside 180 lock can still be obtained Ssrm are not affected. Ssrm is a different discussion and needs a different fix. Perhaps require a relock after each time it's fired that is probably the only change I think should be made

[Snuglninja]

I agree with a lot you say wolf. In addition I would not mind an upgrade module for guardian to angel for a hefty price on xp and cost and repair. The angel would give the benefit of making Ssrm lock unobtainable inside the bubble but they could dumb fire.

[WardenWolf]

Snuglninja, on 07 December 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I agree with a lot you say wolf. In addition I would not mind an upgrade module for guardian to angel for a hefty price on xp and cost and repair. The angel would give the benefit of making Ssrm lock unobtainable inside the bubble but they could dumb fire.

Angel ECM should be available in the future, but we aren't there yet in the timeline. It should also cost more, as you noted, and also use more space. Oh, and I think it could also do both ECM and ECCM roles at the same time? Well, we won't have to worry about it for a few years yet

[Evilsmirk]

So you're advocating that ECM has no effect on sensor range? Two 'Mechs 750m apart will be able to target each other as long as neither is in an enemy ECM field? No, that defeats the purpose of ECM. The purpose is to mask and hide your units from enemy sensors. Cutting off your enemy inside the bubble is a benifit.

I get the problem you're trying to solve now though. It's the poor U/I options to target. The only option we have is 'R' until it happens to switch to the right one making "Focus Charlie" harder to achieve. Aside from adding info like "Focus Charlie, Blue Atlas, smoking arms" the problem isn't solved by tweaking ECM for me. It's adding a target assist or target closest options to the UI. Both of which would fall under the current targeting restrictions of ECM.

[Mack1]

It should only effect the player carrying it, it should be expensive, a module and should only effect 50% of missiles.

Yes this may not go with your precious Lore but it would make the game a damn site better than what it is now.

[Snuglninja]

No evil in bt that is not the purpose of ecm, maybe in star trek but not battletech. It is suppose to be the counter to narc, bap, Artemis for everyone in the 180 bubble that's it. Also if I run into your bubble I lose com with my group hence I can not send target info back and pretty useless as a scout until I exit the bubble. The device that cloaks mech is a null signature device and while a mech uses this he is undetectable by other sensors but the mech cannot use his nsd and heatsink at the same time.

[WardenWolf]

Snuglninja, on 07 December 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

No evil in bt that is not the purpose of ecm, maybe in star trek but not battletech. It is suppose to be the counter to narc, bap, Artemis for everyone in the 180 bubble that's it. Also if I run into your bubble I lose com with my group hence I can not send target info back and pretty useless as a scout until I exit the bubble. The device that cloaks mech is a null signature device and while a mech uses this he is undetectable by other sensors but the mech cannot use his nsd and heatsink at the same time.

Spot on, sir!

Evilsmirk, on 07 December 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

So you're advocating that ECM has no effect on sensor range? Two 'Mechs 750m apart will be able to target each other as long as neither is in an enemy ECM field? No, that defeats the purpose of ECM. The purpose is to mask and hide your units from enemy sensors. Cutting off your enemy inside the bubble is a benifit.

I get the problem you're trying to solve now though. It's the poor U/I options to target. The only option we have is 'R' until it happens to switch to the right one making "Focus Charlie" harder to achieve. Aside from adding info like "Focus Charlie, Blue Atlas, smoking arms" the problem isn't solved by tweaking ECM for me. It's adding a target assist or target closest options to the UI. Both of which would fall under the current targeting restrictions of ECM.

I would like to see it tried without the targeting block, and I think it would really be useful - but not mandatory - at that point. As it is now, a team without ECM vs one with even just 1-2 mechs with it is a completely unfair fight.

If it turned out to be insufficient, then maybe bring back the target blocking with ECM... but make it more than 200m. Maybe 400m, or just 'half of whatever you would normally have with your mech + optional BAP / module'. That would also least give some options

[Evilsmirk]

Snuglninja, on 07 December 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

No evil in bt that is not the purpose of ecm, maybe in star trek but not battletech. It is suppose to be the counter to narc, bap, Artemis for everyone in the 180 bubble that's it. Also if I run into your bubble I lose com with my group hence I can not send target info back and pretty useless as a scout until I exit the bubble. The device that cloaks mech is a null signature device and while a mech uses this he is undetectable by other sensors but the mech cannot use his nsd and heatsink at the same time.

Well ok, but in TT ECM blocked those functions for targets with LOS through the bubble, not just targets in it. Anyone saying to fix that aspect? And in TT LOS only affected if you were able to shoot the bad guy or not, you always knew that your friend's mini was on the other side of the hill. Unless you had a ref and were playing some sort of double blind optional system anyway. So sensors and targeting in MWO work differently than in TT. So again the porpose of ECM is to confuse the enemy sensors.

WardenWolf, on 07 December 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I would like to see it tried without the targeting block, and I think it would really be useful - but not mandatory - at that point. As it is now, a team without ECM vs one with even just 1-2 mechs with it is a completely unfair fight.

If it turned out to be insufficient, then maybe bring back the target blocking with ECM... but make it more than 200m. Maybe 400m, or just 'half of whatever you would normally have with your mech + optional BAP / module'. That would also least give some options

The issue I have is that if one person targets it everyone sees it. There are no restrictions to information sharing other than ECM. Now I guess that simply being able to target an enemy in an ECM bubble doesn't mean you can achieve lock on to shot it with streaks or guided LRMs, and that might be a suitable compromise.

And don't insult me (unintentional no doubt, but still) with the whole if one side doesn't have it and one side does it's completly unfair line. I'm sure Europe at one point wanted the Roman legion nerfed, or the Native Americans cried muskets are OP, but unlike those examples you have easy access to bring your own ECM to the fight.

[Tilon]

Evilsmirk, on 07 December 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

So you're advocating that ECM has no effect on sensor range? Two 'Mechs 750m apart will be able to target each other as long as neither is in an enemy ECM field? No, that defeats the purpose of ECM. The purpose is to mask and hide your units from enemy sensors. Cutting off your enemy inside the bubble is a benifit.

Masking friendly units from long range locks has NEVER been the purpose of Guardian ECM.

Guardian ECM JAMS ENEMIES. It has a limited range it can do so. it does not 'mask friendlies'. it's a JAMMER. What, is it jamming its own friendly mechs? That makes no sense!

Currently, ECM is acting as both a jammer and an AOE Null Signature System.

Null Signature Systems in Battletech were expensive, had large heat drawbacks, and were not AOE.

According to Battletech, the biggest drawback of the Guardian ECM is its limited range.

When the ECM's limited range is actually a drawback in game, it will be balanced. Currently, the ECM's range is unlimited, because distance to friendlies is more important than distance to opponents.

ECM affects opponents, not friendlies. The way they have it implemented gives it an effect on both, which is OP and has no drawbacks.

Edited by Tilon, 07 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Tolkien]

BlackSquirrel, on 06 December 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

In layman... "Make your **** not work!"

Would you rather have a smaller radar profile or straight jack people's radar? Because real ECM scrambles it, adds/spoofs targets. Jams it, redirects it.

The term ECM can mean a lot of things... Radar masking I dont think is that big of a deal (for non LRMS) Should it function as a bubble? Well kinda because that's what jamming is.

See how it works after a couple of weeks time to adjust because people are so use to red triangles showing them everything rather than scanning.

Just food for thought here - if you are blasting out enough EMI (electro magnetic radiation) to scramble radar etc. you are also blasting out a signal that can be used to track you.

This is why during wars like the first iraq war, iraqi SAM operators would often leave their radars off! They knew if they powered up their radar a missile would be on its way within minutes. The same goes for a jammer like ECM - they should introduce a mode for LRMs that home in on powerful radiation sources like ECM.

Look up the concept of a HARM missile - fielded by the US since 1985
http://en.wikipedia....iki/AGM-88_HARM

[Tilon]

Tolkien, on 07 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Just food for thought here - if you are blasting out enough EMI (electro magnetic radiation) to scramble radar etc. you are also blasting out a signal that can be used to track you.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/AGM-88_HARM

Exactly. This would be a balanced game design, but currently, ECM is acting as both a jammer, and masking its own signature as well as its friends'.

This is why ECM is currently imbalanced. It's a win-win. It both masks itself, and jams enemies simultaneously.

Masking your own signature is considerably harder than jamming enemies, and in Battletech ECM did not mask your signature, a Null Signature System did.

This is the Null Signature System rules:

Quote

The null signature system features heat baffles that mask the 'Mech's heat sinks and reduce its infrared signature. However, the baffles restrict the normal venting of heat, meaning the 'Mech generates an additional 10 points of heat while the system is active.

See how many drawbacks the system has? Masking your own signature is supposed to be HARD and have drawbacks.

Currently, the 1.5 ton ECM system is both a jammer, and an AOE Null Signature System. With no drawbacks.

This is completely out of whack. The problem is that somewhere, some genius got the idea that ECM 'masks' friendlies. It does nothing of the sort. The only way ECM 'masks' anything is by jamming an opponent, which has to be within the ECM's range to be jammed.

[TheMightyWashburn]

I know it doesnt fit with TT but what if every mech could carry them(and only that mech got the anti lock on effect) but the effect only halved your post BAP&module lock on range. (400 to 575)

"But the streakapults would come back". To some degree, yes, but they arent useless as is. You can still lock on within 180 meters, it just takes longer. Moveover, with reduce impulse and smoke they are not so bad.

Perhaps reduce their jamming range a little as well.

[Snuglninja]

Now los determines whether or not the target square comes up. If I can't see you a scout has to. Now I don't even get the square. I can't even get a target until you 25% of range. Also why can't people inside the bubble get lock?