88 replies to this topic

[WardenWolf]

Evilsmirk, on 07 December 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Well ok, but in TT ECM blocked those functions for targets with LOS through the bubble, not just targets in it. Anyone saying to fix that aspect? And in TT LOS only affected if you were able to shoot the bad guy or not, you always knew that your friend's mini was on the other side of the hill. Unless you had a ref and were playing some sort of double blind optional system anyway. So sensors and targeting in MWO work differently than in TT. So again the porpose of ECM is to confuse the enemy sensors.

I would be okay with reproducing the LOS stuff, but it was intended to be LOS between a C3 equipped mech and the C3 master. We all basically have C3 units, with no assigned master, so would it be if LOS is cut off to all friendly mechs? It could get confusing, which is why I left that out.

Evilsmirk, on 07 December 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

The issue I have is that if one person targets it everyone sees it. There are no restrictions to information sharing other than ECM. Now I guess that simply being able to target an enemy in an ECM bubble doesn't mean you can achieve lock on to shot it with streaks or guided LRMs, and that might be a suitable compromise.

This is why I was thinking perhaps either halved target distance, or increased missile lock time. Something certainly would be okay in that regard, I think, above and beyond the TT ECM rules... just not as powerful as it is now.

Evilsmirk, on 07 December 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

And don't insult me (unintentional no doubt, but still) with the whole if one side doesn't have it and one side does it's completly unfair line. I'm sure Europe at one point wanted the Roman legion nerfed, or the Native Americans cried muskets are OP, but unlike those examples you have easy access to bring your own ECM to the fight.

No insult meant, certainly! In premade it is easy to make sure a couple mechs bring ECM, but in PUGs you either have to bring it yourself (as I do for now) or pray someone else does. And if everyone brought their own, we'd all see the same 4 mechs over and over...

Edited by WardenWolf, 07 December 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[Tilon]

TheMightyWashburn, on 07 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

I know it doesnt fit with TT but what if every mech could carry them(and only that mech got the anti lock on effect) but the effect only halved your post BAP&module lock on range. (400 to 575)

ECM shouldn't prevent you from being locked if the enemy mech is outside your ECM's range. That's why ECM's biggest drawback is its limited range, something currently not expressed in the game at all.

ECM has never countered direct LRMs. It counters SPOTTING for INDIRECT LRMs, because you cut the spotter off with ECM if his communications goes through the ECM bubble or is inside the bubble.

ECM being used as a counter to direct LOS LRMs has no precedent in Battletech whatsoever.

Sure, ECM could use a boost beyond TT rules. I'm okay with it preventing 'R' targeting, but if you put your cursor on them, you should still get an LRM lock.

Edited by Tilon, 07 December 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[BlackSquirrel]

Tolkien, on 07 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Just food for thought here - if you are blasting out enough EMI (electro magnetic radiation) to scramble radar etc. you are also blasting out a signal that can be used to track you.

This is why during wars like the first iraq war, iraqi SAM operators would often leave their radars off! They knew if they powered up their radar a missile would be on its way within minutes. The same goes for a jammer like ECM - they should introduce a mode for LRMs that home in on powerful radiation sources like ECM.

Look up the concept of a HARM missile - fielded by the US since 1985
http://en.wikipedia....iki/AGM-88_HARM

But that's just radar... Radar jamming can be mechanical or electronic. Mechs I believe use a variety. Also attempting to shoot at a jammer is difficult because technically they pulse the signal. Just making standard radar unreliable. Which means homing in is tougher.

The Israelis actually hacked radar, and put in fake information.

Granted adding another layer to ECM could make things more interesting. I would say we need larger maps to really make cat and mouse more interesting though.

Honestly turning on heat vision (Not on caustic) is the counter. People just seem to forget that you can in fact directly shoot at targets without red triangles over their heads.

Edited by BlackSquirrel, 07 December 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[Tilon]

BlackSquirrel, on 07 December 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Honestly turning on heat vision (Not on caustic) is the counter. People just seem to forget that you can in fact directly shoot at targets without red triangles over their heads.

Exactly, ECM can't hide a heat (or ferrous, or visual) signature. Which is why if you are outside the ECM's jamming range, you should be able to get a lock with your mech's computer!

The system that hides your heat signature is called a Null Signature System, and it had significant drawbacks, such as generating 10 heat a round.

Currently, ECM is acting as both a jammer and an AOE Null Signature System, which has no drawbacks and is totally out of whack, considering the damn thing only weighs a heatsink and a half.

Edited by Tilon, 07 December 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[BlackSquirrel]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Exactly, ECM can't hide a heat (or ferrous, or visual) signature. Which is why if you are outside the ECM's jamming range, you should be able to get a lock with your mech's computer!

The system that hides your heat signature is called a Null Signature System, and it had significant drawbacks, such as generating 10 heat a round.

Currently, ECM is acting as both a jammer and an AOE Null Signature System, which has no drawbacks and is totally out of whack, considering the damn thing only weighs a heatsink and a half.

No that's visual... Your brain... Not the mech. You can see a stealth fighter/F-22/Bomber/F-35, but radar can't.
You v. your mech. Now if you want to argue that your "radar" (lidar) in this case should pick up and create that triangle at a certain distance... So be it. But that could be easily fooled/confused by other heat sources, and thus fake triangles. Or implemented such a device that does infact have to be switched on... ok

So you still have heat vision and your good ol brain.

[Leetskeet]

I like what it does, I like how it works, I like how it's pretty debilitating when its affecting you, but I don't like how the only way to deal with it is another ECM. What PGI has done is forced nothing more than ECM stacking and it's just plain boring, honestly.

BAP should directly counter it, as far as I'm concerned.

[Brock7142]

BlackSquirrel, on 07 December 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

No that's visual... Your brain... Not the mech. You can see a stealth fighter/F-22/Bomber/F-35, but radar can't.
You v. your mech. Now if you want to argue that your "radar" (lidar) in this case should pick up and create that triangle at a certain distance... So be it. But that could be easily fooled/confused by other heat sources, and thus fake triangles. Or implemented such a device that does infact have to be switched on... ok

So you still have heat vision and your good ol brain.

Anytime I go up against God-Build D-DCs, my Heat Vision gets scrambled... Not just once, but everytime I fight one. I have to turn off Heat Vision. At Long-range, the D-DCs seem to have a scrambled signature. As you get closer, heat vision is more and more useless.

[KuruptU4Fun]

ECM works the way it does now, stop thinking it should work the way you'd like it to. Test out new tactics to counter it until you find something that does work at least somewhat effectively. Just like most of us have already been doing. And yes that includes preemie 8vs8 matches that use min/max teams.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 07 December 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[BlackSquirrel]

Brock7142, on 07 December 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Anytime I go up against God-Build D-DCs, my Heat Vision gets scrambled... Not just once, but everytime I fight one. I have to turn off Heat Vision. At Long-range, the D-DCs seem to have a scrambled signature. As you get closer, heat vision is more and more useless.

How is your heat vision scrambled? I use mine a ton, and never had an issue. (And yes heat vision is better for discerning targets at range, that normal vision has difficulty picking out. Even up close though... No issues.

[Brock7142]

On maps with poor long-range visability, you may as well not even bother with Heat Vision, when the silhouette of the D-DC is skewed, (Same with Cicada, etc rolling it) it deminishes long-range weapons effectiveness when using HEAT vision. at long-range without heat vision, or poor visability maps, it's utterly pointless even trying to look for them. While said D-DC can have his thermal on, turn on his gauss cannons, aim, and have complete and utter free-reign in shooting/blowing you away at ranges you can't even return fire back with. (With skewed signature, it makes it pointless because you can't tell if you're aiming at the center of the mech, or three feet away off the side of the mech)

And it's consistant with all ECM mechs I've ran across thus far.

ECM essentially forces you to go head on, close quarters to have any real effect. And by the time you close the distance, God forbid if it's a God-Build D-DC, you'll be dead before you get within 200 meters. When you do get within 200 meters, his fellow ECM bud will just finish you off.

God Build D-DCs can obliterate 3 Heavy mechs solo, on their own without any help. It takes a 4th heavy mech to destroy the D-DC, assuming they are all working together on the same target. It's ridiculous.

BlackSquirrel, on 07 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

How is your heat vision scrambled? I use mine a ton, and never had an issue. (And yes heat vision is better for discerning targets at range, that normal vision has difficulty picking out. Even up close though... No issues.

There heat signatures are skewed. Compare a Normal enemy Atlas to an Atlas D-DC with its EW on. At range, it's scewed. As you get closer, when you look at the D-DC directly, notice how your HEAT vision becomes blurrier. When you within 100 meters of it, you HEAT VIsion becomes useless tot he point you can't even mech out the non-ECM mechs.

[WardenWolf]

Brock7142, on 07 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

There heat signatures are skewed. Compare a Normal enemy Atlas to an Atlas D-DC with its EW on. At range, it's scewed. As you get closer, when you look at the D-DC directly, notice how your HEAT vision becomes blurrier. When you within 100 meters of it, you HEAT VIsion becomes useless tot he point you can't even mech out the non-ECM mechs.

I hadn't noticed anything like this - I will have to check it out...

[Brock7142]

WardenWolf, on 07 December 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I hadn't noticed anything like this - I will have to check it out...

Definitely do that.

Compare heat signatures of non-ECM varients of the same mechs, to there ECM varients. Earlier I was in a 4 man group, enemy team had 5 ECM D-DCs. I was watching the hill when three of them came over it. They were close enough together that I couldn't differentiate the gap of air between them vs the mechs themselves. I had to turn off heat vision to actually shoot them. With radar jammed from our proximity, me and the rest of my team were blinded to the point we didn't realize the other 5 mechs were coming around behind us. and all 8 of us were slaughtered.

[BlackSquirrel]

He should have just as much trouble shooting you assuming it's over his "pickup range" 800m or if BAP = PR * .25 or if has the module + BAP = PR * .25 + .15. 1000+m. Which case gauss goes into falloff.

With zoom mod sniping becomes easier obviously. But at that range hitting with just radar becomes quite difficult as well. (meaning if he's just shooting at a triangle; he's either very good or very lucky) and hitting a fast mech is nigh impossible.

What you just pointed out is circumstantial and most likely on caustic.... Or you need to improve your aim. ON TOP OF THAT! there is enough cover to dodge and get in close to their location (You know where they are)

ECM only screws up LRMS, SRMS, and your triangles... Not your direct aim or looking around more to spot people.

[Brock7142]

BlackSquirrel, on 07 December 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

He should have just as much trouble shooting you assuming it's over his "pickup range" 800m or if BAP = PR * .25 or if has the module + BAP = PR * .25 + .15. 1000+m. Which case gauss goes into falloff.

With zoom mod sniping becomes easier obviously. But at that range hitting with just radar becomes quite difficult as well. (meaning if he's just shooting at a triangle; he's either very good or very lucky) and hitting a fast mech is nigh impossible.

What you just pointed out is circumstantial and most likely on caustic.... Or you need to improve your aim. ON TOP OF THAT! there is enough cover to dodge and get in close to their location (You know where they are)

ECM only screws up LRMS, SRMS, and your triangles... Not your direct aim or looking around more to spot people.

So far, I've seen it effect Heat Vision quite extensively. That said, It's Caustic, and that Snow City Map or whatever it is the snow map with the drop ship in the middle area. And God Build D-DC players don't seem to have any issues at all. One destroyed me in my Raven at 81 K/PH over 1,200 meters away. Had no issues at all destroying me, on the move, and at long-range with the Gauss cannons. I saw him as a blue blurr in the far background. He just fired one shot, put me to near critical. Fired missile volley up ahead of me I didn't realize I was running into, then finished me off with the next salvo of his Gauss cannons.

God build D-DCs are ridiculus to have in this game. If they didn't have ECMs, it'd be far more balanced tahn it is.

I also had another game in my Raven, running the 3 line in the snow city map, Had both my legs shot out, followed by a blow that took out my cockpit by a God build D-DC over 1,000 meters away. He followed through with killing four other heavy mechs and 3 kill assists. His other D-DC with him got the other 3 kills.

The buld is: Atlas D-DC-2 Gauss Rifles, 3 Short Range Missiles, 2 Medium Range Lasers

Edited by Brock7142, 07 December 2012 - 01:52 PM.

[BlackSquirrel]

I would also argue you dont need heat vision against an atlas at < 300m. But I've never noticed naything crazy.

If you mean heat vision isn't as "crisp" as regular... I'd have to say well yes... That's how IR is.

[Brock7142]

BlackSquirrel, on 07 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I would also argue you dont need heat vision against an atlas at < 300m. But I've never noticed naything crazy.

If you mean heat vision isn't as "crisp" as regular... I'd have to say well yes... That's how IR is.

Not talking about being "crisp" I'm talking about it becoming outright blurred. Like fill in the screen WTH am I looking at blue blurr.

Mechs not running ECM, have more clearer silhouettes than the same varients that don't run ECM. At long-range, and up close.

Edited by Brock7142, 07 December 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[WardenWolf]

Brock7142, on 07 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

The buld is: Atlas D-DC-2 Gauss Rifles, 3 Short Range Missiles, 2 Medium Range Lasers

Um... as a D-DC pilot myself (all Atlas variants, pre-ECM) I can tell you that is impossible. You cannot mount dual Gauss rifles on any Atlas. It could be a single Gauss, or a pair of AC5 / Ultra AC5 - or maybe one of each (Gauss + [U]AC5). The rest of the build there is doable, but some of your account doesn't work if he only had SRMs (you talked about running into LRMs you didn't realize he had fired).

[Lane]

ECM should effect mechs that arn't in your line of sight only. If I can see it I should be able to target and shoot it with all weapons, however my team-mates over the ridge should be in the dark. Counter should negate ecm's effects.

[Brock7142]

WardenWolf, on 07 December 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Um... as a D-DC pilot myself (all Atlas variants, pre-ECM) I can tell you that is impossible. You cannot mount dual Gauss rifles on any Atlas. It could be a single Gauss, or a pair of AC5 / Ultra AC5 - or maybe one of each (Gauss + [U]AC5). The rest of the build there is doable, but some of your account doesn't work if he only had SRMs (you talked about running into LRMs you didn't realize he had fired).

Nope, downsize the engine. Gives you the tonnage allowance to mount the second Gauss. And no, SRMs. Not LRMs. If you aim up above an area, your SRMs can hit the area you're focusing on targeting. SRMs then, become an Area Effect Weapon to almost equiv to LRMs. With much less weight. I spoke to God Build Atlas D-DCs extensively about how they did there build. To decrease tonnage even more, is simply by decreasing the armor plates slightly in less critical areas which allow for more ammunition.

Edited by Brock7142, 07 December 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[WardenWolf]

Brock7142, on 07 December 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Nope, downsize the engine. Gives you the tonnage allowance to mount the second Gauss. And no, SRMs. Not LRMs. If you aim up above an area, your SRMs can hit the area you're focusing on targeting. SRMs then, become an Area Effect Weapon to almost equiv to LRMs. With much less weight. I spoke to God Build Atlas D-DCs extensively about how they did there build. To decrease tonnage even more, is simply by decreasing the armor plates slightly in less critical areas which allow for more ammunition.

It has nothing to do with tonnage - it is crits. A Gauss rifle is 7 crits, you have only 12 in the right torso (the only place with ballistic hardpoints on an Atlas). You can fit two AC5 (4 crits each), Ultra AC5 (5 crits each) or one of them plus a Gauss (4+7=11 / 5+7=12) but not two Gauss (7+7=14, not enough space).

If they have found some way around that, it is a bug and needs to be addressed by PGI asap. I would submit a bug report the next time you talk to someone claiming to run that, and include their name so that PGI can look it up.

Also, on the topic of SRMs, they blow up at 270 meters (their max range) so they can't do damage at long range like LRMs can at all. They are quite devastating up-close, though... I just don't use them because I can't get the hang of firing and hitting (missiles are much slower projectile speed than anything else in the game).

Edited by WardenWolf, 07 December 2012 - 03:09 PM.