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The Truth Behind The Ecm Debate


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#1 Grym

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:00 PM

Heres the reality of the ECM debate. At least from my eyes as a brawler non-ssrm boat that does use SSRMs in limited number on several builds.

ECM is OP. It really is. But its OP because of streak cats. I feel that the complete jamming at close range was implemented in direct response to streak cats.

No one doubts this whatsover.

But heres the part thats bad. No one but streak cat pilots wants the configuration to be viable. It was horribly overpowered but hard to address since nerfing the weapon or chassis would have affected other configurations/mechs.

So here is non-cannon ECM as a result.

I love it. Because of how horrible the game was to PUG with streak cats dominating every match.

But now we have LRMs inadvertantly affected. A valid build in my eyes.

Streak cat pilots are arguing to make their build viable again. Their argument is moot. They are to blame for their own situation.

LRM boats are suffering because of their cheese build brothers. They have a valid argument and should be addressed.

Its far too strong for LRMs in its current form. Being limited to 25% range is pretty much gauranteeing that their missiles are useless, making the support role unviable.

In its current form ECM reduces lockon range to 25% of its current amount. Change this to 60% or 70% or even more...you could completely remove the reduced ranged and just increase lock time.

This gives LRM boats the ability to contribute in pug/team matches. While still be limited as intended by ECM but not to the degree that is unnecessary.

As for streak cats. Your FOTM is over. As by nature of FOTM you should be piloting D-DC's with all the money you saved while being OP.

#2 Phatel

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:06 PM

ECM is fine. It has limited range, counters and is only available on limited mechs. People thinking that they shouldn't have to adjust playstyle is the problem. Sitting 1k meters back semi afk and pushing 1 to dominate the enemy may not be viable if the enemy has ECM AND they stay under the umbrella AND you don't have Tag AND they are not countered with ECM jamming. So ya, totally broke being lazy for kills, your ability to sit at your spawn and fire endless waves of LRM at every mech on the other side is no longer viable. Most of us are not upset.

#3 Tiger 6

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

Tripping and streaks were about the only reliable way of destroying a teleporting scout. Now in 8 man drops we are getting swamped by ECM Raven's and Cicada's and can't counter them with either tactic. Bring back tripping and ECM won't be OP.

#4 Rocket2Uranus

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

ECM does change the battlefield.

So what?
Now players will have to either group up with players who have ECM or if you play pugs, you will have to step up with a mech with ECM.

This is to counter the ridiculous amounts of "missile boats" that have been running around. Not just LRM missile boats but SSRM Boats.

Evolve with the battlefield or stop playing online games.

I find that most of the complainers about ECM are people who have been playing "easy mode" with LRM/SSRM boats. Now they see their skills put to the test they want to cry about it.

It goes the same for people complaining about AC 2/5 having balanced out. They are up and arms about the game being "broken" and "unbalanced" now.

I keep telling people to skill up and use lasers and they all get *********. lol
This pleases me so much.

Edited by Rocket2Uranus, 06 December 2012 - 05:25 PM.


#5 Joker Two

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

View PostPhatel, on 06 December 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

ECM is fine. It has limited range, counters...


The problem is that although it does have a limited range in the sense of having a field 180m in radius, it has a unlimited range in the sense that it prevents all targeting from outside that distance.

As far as counters, you can field ballistic or energy weapons, but the most serious effect of ECM, hiding the unit from being targeted/having that target data shared still affects them. Also, the 'Mechs fielding ECM are usually carrying ballistics or energy weapons anyway, so it isn't much of a counter.

The second counter is TAG, which is currently affected by short range (will be patched, apparently), and the difficulty of holding on target (something that will never go away, especially given the terrain of the maps, even caustic valley).

The third counter is ECM, which is a hard counter (in that it completely nullifies an enemy ECM's effect). However, having a piece of equipment being its own best counter, is forgive the pun, counter-productive, as it actually just encourages use of the equipment more.

#6 Teralitha

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

Basecapping limited tactical possibilities. This version of ECM has gone and reduced the number of tactical possibilities even more.

We have gone from playing chess, to playing checkers, and now we are playing tic-tac-toe. Whats next? What is an even more simplistic strategy game than tic-tac-toe? Ill tell you what is... Mechwarrior Online

Edited by Teralitha, 06 December 2012 - 06:37 PM.


#7 Coolant

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:45 PM

View PostGrym, on 06 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Heres the reality of the ECM debate. At least from my eyes as a brawler non-ssrm boat that does use SSRMs in limited number on several builds.

ECM is OP. It really is. But its OP because of streak cats. I feel that the complete jamming at close range was implemented in direct response to streak cats.

No one doubts this whatsover....


I hate when people post their thoughts and include me with them...i doubt it, so don't speak for me.

As far as ECM it hasn't really impacted me much that I've seen at all. I get about the same damage, and about the same kill/death ratio as pre-ECM. My tactics haven't changed either. I don't want to hide, I want enemy mechs to know where I am so there is actual combat rather than waiting for minutes for anything to happen. Reminds of MWL drops in MW4:Mercs where 90% of the match is complete and utter boredom and maybe 10% of the time we're in combat...unless there is no combat and we have to re-drop. I can take or leave the way ECM works now functionally, but it does seem to lessen the action...

#8 JudgeDeathCZ

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:41 PM

View PostRocket2Uranus, on 06 December 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

ECM does change the battlefield.

So what?
Now players will have to either group up with players who have ECM or if you play pugs, you will have to step up with a mech with ECM.


Pretty much this!
I am forced to play 1 of 4 mechs avialable to equip ECM...why we dont delete other mechs and just keep only ECM ones?

#9 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

View PostPhatel, on 06 December 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

ECM is fine. It has limited range, counters and is only available on limited mechs. People thinking that they shouldn't have to adjust playstyle is the problem. Sitting 1k meters back semi afk and pushing 1 to dominate the enemy may not be viable if the enemy has ECM AND they stay under the umbrella AND you don't have Tag AND they are not countered with ECM jamming. So ya, totally broke being lazy for kills, your ability to sit at your spawn and fire endless waves of LRM at every mech on the other side is no longer viable. Most of us are not upset.


i disagree whole heartedly as only the truely moronic do this then get flanked cause they standout like a sore thumb and they proberbly don't even realise that around 60% of their salvos are not hitting the targets. as it stands lrms are so ineffiecient to use you'd be crazy to and considering the role they had in mech warrior folklore ie over 50% of mechs having an lrm pod some chasis being devoted to missle pods in general i have to say this is a horrible implementaion that has cut the mechwarrior nose of to spite it's face. vulture and madcats have had almost half their traditional build turned redundant in one piece of equipement that's so easy to use you don't even have to mash a button. so glad i'm a laser boat these days.

#10 Bad Andy

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:52 PM

the funny thing is the Atlas D-DC is a very good missile boat, with ECM and weight matching in 8 man's as is it's hugely superior to pretty much any other support mech. I'm kicking myself for buying an awesome 8-R now.

#11 CocoaJin

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:02 PM

LRMs are still viable, what has become a difficult role to operate is the LRM boat that just sits in the back of the map spamming missiles.

ECM's affect on LRMs is that they are to be part of well rounded build and to be used more frequently now at intermediate ranges. Pure LRM boats will be most viable under a coordinated group dynamic, where proper team play is in effect to neutralize ECM threats.

So now, i expect to see mechs with a one or two LRM5s or a LRM10 to supplement their primary arsenal of ACs or Lasers. these guys will use their LRMs to engage targets as rear support for brawlers...firing on non-ECM protected targets or exposed targets of opportunity that fall out of the protective bubble.

That sounds pretty TT to me.

Edited by CocoaJin, 06 December 2012 - 08:05 PM.


#12 Bad Andy

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

LRM's may still be viable the thing is if you want to use them as one of your main weapons there is ZERO reason now to field anything but an Atlas D-DC. I agree that allowing people to dominate by just sitting at 900 meters spamming lrm's is not interesting. To be honest though it was more effective even before the patch to play close support or at least try and achieve a good firing position for LRM fire.

Now there is no reason to play an awesome or catapult as a support mech.

#13 Grym

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

View PostCoolant, on 06 December 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:


I hate when people post their thoughts and include me with them...i doubt it, so don't speak for me.



I see.

So why the change from the traditional ECM?

#14 LynxFury

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:45 PM

"I feel that the complete jamming at close range was implemented in direct response to streak cats.

No one doubts this whatsoever."


Actually I think you're entirely wrong.

They appear to be completely separate events that happen to coincide and hit the patches at about the same time. The ECM concept probably been kicking around for months at part of the EW warfare ideas.

They both are overpowered.

#15 Codejack

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

View PostGrym, on 06 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:


ECM is OP. It really is. But its OP because of streak cats. I feel that the complete jamming at close range was implemented in direct response to streak cats.


Yes.

View PostGrym, on 06 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

But heres the part thats bad. No one but streak cat pilots wants the configuration to be viable.


So? No one but Jenner pilots want them to be viable. No one but Gausscats wants them to be viable. Just because you don't like a particular build does not make it illegitimate.


View PostGrym, on 06 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

It was horribly overpowered but hard to address since nerfing the weapon or chassis would have affected other configurations/mechs.


And this is where you really lose me. First, streakcats were NOT overpowered; they excelled at killing light mechs, as a heavy specifically dedicated to the task should. You should be thankful that they have nerfed them from TT, or you would be seeing 10xSSRM2 Cats.

Second, the key to fighting them was tactics: If you are lighter, don't let them catch you in the open at close range (easy enough unless you gimped you engine) and take cover to break lock, then slash back in; if you are heavier, then you should have the firepower advantage and be with the group, anyway.

Third, there were many suggestions to moderately nerf the streakcat; cutting the shake/smoke/darken, requiring lock-on after each salvo, etc. I don't agree with it, but whatever.

Finally, the idea that a light mech should be a dangerous opponent for every assault and heavy mech in the game is ridiculous. Of course they should be annoying to most of them, but a low-end heavy that has sacrificed range, flexibility, and direct fire just to hunt lights should be pretty good at it, shouldn't it?


View PostGrym, on 06 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Streak cat pilots are arguing to make their build viable again. Their argument is moot. They are to blame for their own situation.


Yea, how dare anyone actually make the best mech possible under the rules at the time!


View PostGrym, on 06 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

As for streak cats. Your FOTM is over. As by nature of FOTM you should be piloting D-DC's with all the money you saved while being OP.


Ugh, no; Commando-2D with ECM and 3xSSRM2. I call it the Halfcat :D

#16 Grym

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

View PostLynxFury, on 06 December 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

"I feel that the complete jamming at close range was implemented in direct response to streak cats.

No one doubts this whatsoever."


Actually I think you're entirely wrong.

They appear to be completely separate events that happen to coincide and hit the patches at about the same time. The ECM concept probably been kicking around for months at part of the EW warfare ideas.




I see.

So what weapon is directly affected the worse by not being able to lock on to a target withing 180m? Is this weapon boat-able by specific mech chassis?

So by design of the 180m no-lock what mech configuration was impacted the most? Was this configuration being complained about in the forums?

Do you really think that all of the answers to these questions are mere coincidences coinciding with the death of a FOTM mech config?

Guess the Gauss nerfs arent because there are now 4 mechs able to mount 2 of them. Instead of the former 1 that was constantly complained about.

Edited by Grym, 06 December 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#17 Adrienne Vorton

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:04 PM

View PostPhatel, on 06 December 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

. People thinking that they shouldn't have to adjust playstyle is the problem.


#18 Adrienne Vorton

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:09 PM

View PostGrym, on 06 December 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

So what weapon is directly affected the worse by not being able to lock on to a target withing 180m?


the only group of mechpilots that are affected are lone wolfs... at moment, IF i WAS a streakcat abuser^^^i´d try an C4 with 4 streaks and a tag, it´s better than nothing :) we will see how useless streaks are when the ceiling mech... ahm sry, stalker shows up ( dunno the variants now, and dunno the hardpoints anyway, so i just have to guess :D )

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 06 December 2012 - 09:10 PM.


#19 Major Havok

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:10 PM

Just played a handful of fights, first time after the new patch, and I have to say that the game is totally different. Sure, Streak Cat builds needed a notch taken out of their belts but this completely nerfs the LRM support role too. Also, half the field is mounting ECM mechs at least in the last hour anyway.

If the game is meant to be up close with lasers and ACs, then mission accomplished.

#20 Phatel

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:20 PM

View PostJudgeDeathCZ, on 06 December 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Pretty much this!
I am forced to play 1 of 4 mechs avialable to equip ECM...why we dont delete other mechs and just keep only ECM ones?

I don't do it because I know how to play and ECM doesn't bother me. I'll play your game though, why don't you?





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