226 replies to this topic

[Panzer Faust]

I never really liked the Cicada. It's basically a double weight locust with a different (and for the extra 20 tons of weight not much better) weapon configuration.

I like the locust as a light mech but who's the genius that though "hmmm... you know... if I increase the internal structure and have a heavier engine. I can take off the two machine guns and add one medium and one small laser. Yeah that's worth an extra 20 tons of nothing."

same armor, heat sinks, and (the only redeeming quality but why bother) speed as the locust. Seriously, if you want a locust with out the MGs just take them off and add the medium laser and light laser if that configuration floats your boat. You actually come out on top buy .5 tons that way with the Locust. you could add 8 more points of armor making it officially better than the Cicada.

if you really want a medium to fill the scout role, the Assassin is a better choice sure it's movement is one less but it has jump jets so its got 7/11/7 movement giving it more versatility. it has half a ton more armor and one medium laser with an SRM2 for up close or it can be a ranged harasser with it's LRM5. That's not a lot mind you but it's a scout mech that does have to get close to do damage which you can't say for the Cicada.

Edited by Panzer Faust, 19 May 2012 - 02:28 AM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Owl Cutter, on 18 May 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Do I need to more strongly emphasis the first sentence in the paragraph you quoted? "The point is," specialised is not necessarily awful. All I was saying about the Urbie is that its niche, while narrow, still exists, and the Urbie is not a particularly poor tool for its role.

There is a place for forces dedicated to defending [particular strategically important sites on] single planets, maintaining constant readiness and including particular assets existing solely for 1) one role in 2) one kind of combat 3) in one specific place. They do not need to fit into dropships, and they not only do not need to stray far on a tactical scale, but at least some large portion _needs to not_ stray far. As for the Urbie not being able to constitute the entirety of such a force on its own, trying to use that as an argument against it is just audaciously blatant Strawman-bashing.

Ok let me explain it for you since your missing my point, that a unit useful for only ONE SINGLE PURPOSE is a failure in most modern military units. Versatility is far more useful in a combat unit, something along the principles of 'adapt and overcome' which is kinda hard when the unit in question can only do a single thing right. As I stated in my other post, if your a planetary militia that does nothing else but guard a single city, then yes the Urbanmech would be the thing for you. For any other unit, wether mercenary or house, it would be a detriment taking up space and resources better used towards machines that can perform multiple roles. Most light mechs can act as scouts, raiders, or as a screening element for your main force. The Urbanmech is just a slow self propelled gun turret only suitable for a defensive role in terrain that forces a close up engagement. Specialization is great in that one single niche, but sucks at everything else, so is the Urbanmech really a great Mech when a commander could purchase other designs for similar cost that could perform well in several ways. So in your post where you say 'if your building an army....' then again, yes the Urbanmech is the unit for you if you want that army to do nothing but sit in place and defend, not even having the ability to pursue the enemy if they are successful in that mission since most assault designs could outrun an Urbanmech. Giving up mobility and hunkering down to play fortress has rarely won battles, just look at the maginot line.

[Owl Cutter]

Could you explain to me how I suggested in any way whatsoever that I might possibly fail to appreciate the fact that the ability to handle unforseen consequences is crucial in the art of war?

[Threat Doc]

Both the UrbanMech AND the Charger are amazingly horrible 'Mechs; yet, we are more likely to see those before we will any amalgam of the 'Mechs that started BattleTech in the first place.

[Owl Cutter]

I think the Cicada is a lot like the Charger in its way, but if we're going to nominate everything that's excessively heavy for no good reason there are probably a lot of candidates.  The Cicada does bother the heck out of me with its flip-arms and lack of arm-mounted weaponry, though.  It's like it was designed for the lowest possible cost-effectiveness, or something.  Actually, since there's so much awesome artwork depicting them spewing fluffy beams from their flippers, maybe I should be wondering if FASA was trolling us.

Edited by Owl Cutter, 19 May 2012 - 07:07 AM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Owl Cutter, on 19 May 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Could you explain to me how I suggested in any way whatsoever that I might possibly fail to appreciate the fact that the ability to handle unforseen consequences is crucial in the art of war?

By your unwavering support of a Mech design that does not allow you to handle unforseen consequences by being too slow to react to them and having utility in a very narrow role only. I'm not trying to flame you or argue, just giving you my opinion on the design, I'm sorry if that opinion is not received well.

[verybad]

Worst mech ever is the Hellstar. An optimized mech using clan tech that makes most other mechs obsolete, and requires higher tech and powershiting in order to compete.

[Shootanoob]

voted "other" but meant "none" (which is not offered as an option here).

In terms of battlefield efficiency, each Mech has its special purpose for what it is designed. Just because I can't do everything I want with my allmighty warmachine does not mean that it is wrong designed.

And yes, there are some very, very special purposes some Mechs are designed for. But as soon as you get past the point of "traditional" role models of scout-, fire- (maybe with the subdivision in brawler and sniper) and command mechs, you might imagine jobs even the most funny design might be designed right for.

In terms of how do I like the design / look of the Mechs it seems to be that Mech designs after 3025 get more and more away from what I like (with the exception of the very first clan Mechs)

Edited by BigPuma, 19 May 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Victor MacGregor]

Stalker...because allying so much power with no hands is just stupid. Face plant in the mud stupid

[Latriam]

JHare, on 14 May 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Jackrabbit is a pretty awful design, I'm hard pressed to top that. But I must try.

The Hornet with LRM 5 is pretty worthless.

FAst mech with long range why is that worthless?
better than 2 med lasers

[Steel Raven]

Ad much as a love to make fun of the Urbie, the 80 ton 'recon' mech armed with only 5 Small Lasers make no sense what so ever. Later version of the Charger such as the Challanger redeem the mech in many ways but there are still better 80 ton war machine out there.

[Owl Cutter]

Tincan Nightmare, on 19 May 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

By your unwavering support of a Mech design that does not allow you to handle unforseen consequences by being too slow to react to them and having utility in a very narrow role only.  I'm not trying to flame you or argue, just giving you my opinion on the design, I'm sorry if that opinion is not received well.

If by "unwavering support," you meant taking the position that it is "not awful" (as opposed to particularly good) specifically for that very narrow role and specifically for users for whom that is appropriate, I don't understand the conflict with the opinion that it has little use in general- one which, by the way, I happen to share. I don't disagree with your position if it is that the Urbie should be very rare since it's pretty much useless all the time, but I am compelled to correct people when they misrepresent my position.

[dyrewolfe]

Much as I'd like to I can't really diss the Urbie. I also like the SB version of the Charger.

I played a 60-70k BV Megamek game with a guy a few years ago. Something like a battalion of Panthers, versus a slightly larger number of Urbanmechs. The map we played on was relatively open terrain (not a city map) and over the course of several hours he comprehensively kicked my ***.

He ended up with about a company of Urbies while I had a couple of lances of Panthers, before we called it a day.

Yes, I truly suck at Megamek.



Back on topic though, one mech I've never been able to find a use for / always hated piloting is the Chimera. Don't know if its any better in the tabletop games or Megamek, but in the MW games, its MRMs are nearly useless and the single large laser you're left with after the missiles run out, means it takes a while to take down your opponents.

Edited by dyrewolfe, 20 May 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[Beazle]

Urbies excite me in a way i don't feel i can discuss on a public forum.

Not the stock one of course, but the mods.

I personally love an LRM packing urbie.

Indirect fire makes me all kinds of happy.

People who played a lot of table-top tend to like the Urbie. It was a great way of putting high amounts of firepower on the map for little BV. You just stick it in a building or some woods, and use it as an anchor for your light mech formations. If you had to withdraw, you just leave it behind to cover you and buy a new one latter with your beer-can deposit money.

[Damecles]

i personally dislike the blacknight. Not that its a bad mech, i just think it has no style compared to a lot of other heavies...and rather hated using it in mw4. it became a premier mech in that game, and i would prefer more traditional designs:)

[MATEO FALCONE]

Lets not forget the Black Knight. Useless waste of mechlab space.

[JHare]

Latriam, on 19 May 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

FAst mech with long range why is that worthless?
better than 2 med lasers

I'm going to argue TT numbers since that was the basis for my bad attitude for these mechs.

If you mean the jackrabbit: 25 Tons 6/9/0, sporting an AC2 and SSRM2. So You get 45 AC shots, of whicn maybe 40% hit if you are lucky (assume you only fire when needing an 8 or lower). So 18-20 shots hit. 40 Damage, spread out because your doing it with as many rolls as is possible. So you've sanded the armor off of a flea/locust/stinger.

This becomes more laughable as you realize that firing all 45 rounds requires more than 45 turns of keeping the range open on a finite map. Even on a perfectly flat and open map this is not plausible. It would take an unbelievably bad player to let you do that. So when the other light mech eventually runs you down (in about 5 turns) and gets in range you are going to be outgunned. Most light mechs sport one or two medium lasers. 5 points damage to one location is punching holes in a light mech's armor. So as you continue to sand armor off evenly, that locust is gonna punch holes in your mech after a couple of shots.

If you face a Spider just eject, It'll be fast and cheaper in the long run.

If you want to make the jackrabbit viable - take out the AC/2 and put in an LRM10. You lose 3 hexes (90 meters) range down to 21 (which most light mechs can't hit at), gain one ton for more ammo (24 shots), and now you are averaging 6 damage a turn in 5 point groups. That will mess up a light mech, and give a medium a hard time. Then Rip out the SSRM2 and replace it with at least one medium laser.

The other option is to stop half and halfing the mech. Rip out the SSRM2 and amo, (2.5 tons), and upgrade the engine. Now you're moving 7/11 or 8/12 and might actualy be able to keep range open.

If you meant the Hornet: 20 tons 5/8/5 ML,SL,LRM5, The LRM just doesn't fit a mech that was intended as an urban support mech. Though I can see some arguments about loading the LRM with thunder ammo. The field refit that throws an SRM4 in place of the LRM5 makes it a pretty nice mech.

Edited by JHare, 20 May 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[Mota Prefect]

Iron Harlequin, on 14 May 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

This thing, kill it with fire, I hate it. Its like a mini loki/thor ******* offspring that has downsyndrome. aka hellspawn.

The Hellspawn kicked *** in MechWarrior 2 and I can remember on many occasions talking a C1 HS when bidding to another clan to bring the tonnage down to equal proportions. What do you not like about it other then its lightly armored? imho that's an easy fix by ditching the JJ's and adding more. I'd also switch to a standard engine to make it a bit less vulnerable. The custom variant on sarna sounds deadly; replacing the 3 pulse lasers with a pair of medium lasers each and 2 x 1 shot rocket launcher 20's.

Edited by Mota Prefect, 20 May 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Mota Prefect, on 20 May 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

The Hellspawn kicked *** in MechWarrior 2 and I can remember on many occasions talking a C1 HS when bidding to another clan to bring the tonnage down to equal proportions. What do you not like about it other then its lightly armored? imho that's an easy fix by ditching the JJ's and adding more. I'd also switch to a standard engine to make it a bit less vulnerable. The custom variant on sarna sounds deadly; replacing the 3 pulse lasers with a pair of medium lasers each and 2 x 1 shot rocket launcher 20's.

??? The hellspawn was in Mechwarrior 2? How did an IS Mech make it into a game set during the big war (or trial) between Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon?

[Asmudius Heng]

I loved the hellspawn in MW4

Load it up with UAC2s ... it wasnt very effective but it was a fun harasser

If you can do well with a mech like that you can do well with anything!