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State Of Weapon Balance With Double Heat Sinks- 2012-12-08


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#1 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:48 AM

The balance in Mechwarrior Online is of great interest to me. Mechwarrior Online is a PvP game, which means that people will gravitate towards powerful builds and optimizing their weapon loadout, and then mess their skill in not just building these loadouts, but also using these loadouts the most effective way to beat their opponents.
Balance in such games is important to me, since without balance, the underpowered choices will be dropped and ignored by most players, as there are better options for the role these choices tend to fill.

So I once again made calculations and charts to assess the weapon balance. I focus on Double Heat Sinks here. Even if the current implementation of Double Heat Sinks may not be what everyone was hoping for - they are still generally better than single heat sinks, and if only because you have your engine heat sinks.

TL;DR Call to Action - Where do we need to improve things? (Assuming we do not want further changes to the heat sink mechanics)
1) Small Lasers and Medium Lasers may be too efficient, and could use a small reduction in power (quite possibly by equally reducing damage and heat).
2) At least Small and Large Pulse Lasers could use a buff, the Large Pulse Laser needing a bigger buff.
3) The AC/10 could use a small buff.
4) The PPC and ER PPC need notable buffs.
5) The Ultra AC/5 Jamming mechanic needs to be analyzed in detail - it is possible that it is currently making the weapon weaker then its theoretical potential when fired without the double shot mode, which is counter-intuitive..
6) The AC/2 could use a nerf - potentially a mixed nerf/buff - a lower rate of fire, but more ammo per ton?
7) SRM and LRM effectiveness need to be evaluated - currently they seem overly efficient, but this is based on ignoring their special missile grouping mechanics.

As a general caveat - it is difficult to consider all weapon balancing factors. Projectile Speed, ballistic drop, clustering, beam durations. All these are factors. That's why it is important to look closely into the charts and interpret values. Generally speaking - the better one of these factors is for a weapon, the higher its actual effectiveness may be - so for example, by range, we would consider the efficiency of weapons to drop off - by how much or by what formula (if it it's not a straight downwards line) is open to debate. But we can still find grave inconsistencies.

The Long Part

Methodology
The charts below are assembled based on the known weapon properties like rate of fire, damage per shot, ammo requirements, ammo per ton and so on. The underlying spreadsheet was made in Excel, but has been exported to GoogleDocs and can be viewed online. (To edit it and put in your own figures, you can download it or export it as your own document.)

Spoiler




The Charts and the Observations
I provide charts for the damage efficiency first. The efficiency value is a bit abstract, however - so there are additional charts that simply describe the weight in tons that would be required for this weapon. This should give you an idea how much tonnage you need to actually invest to make your mech work well.

High Damage (Suitable for Heavy to Assault Mech Chassis)
Posted Image

As a general note - we tend to see a somewhat downwards sloping efficiency with range, though it is only a weak trend. That is something we want to see, as longer range is an advantage that my efficiency calculation itself doesn't track, so instead it must be represented by a low efficiency value in the chart. The exact angle of the slope that we'd need is something that would still need some analysis (If I had an answer for that already, I would have worked range in the efficiency calculation itself, and the efficiency curve should be parallel to the x-axis.)

Notable here is how bad Flamer, Machine Gun and the ER PPC is. THe PPC, ER Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser and Small Pulse Laser also stick out as weak weapons.

The Medium Pulse Laser should be better than the Medium Laser, since it has an even shorter range, but here the question may be - is it perhaps the Medium Laser that needs a nerf? The Laser generates a lot of heat per point of damage, but it also deals a lot of damage per ton. IT may be wise to adjust his damage (and heat) down, to justify his low weight.

The Small Laser looks extreme efficient. It may be questionable whether this is ever aconcern - in the end, even the most extreme laser boats from canon don't seem to carry much more than 12 lasers (The Nova), so we may never have to fear a small laser boat.

The AC/10 is weaker than the Large Laser in shorter engagements - this may warrant a buff for the AC/10, since it seems to be its ballistic brother.

The Ultra Auto-Cannon numbers are weird. I put in the weapon twice, once trying to use its single shot mode and fire rate, and once trying to use its double shot mode, which also brings with itself jamming. THere is some margin for error in this, since the jamming mechanics are not well documented and analyzed yet - but it seems all wrong to me. Assuming the weapon could be fired without jamming in single shot mode (it cannot), shouldn't it fire just as fast as the regular AC/5 and thus be a little less efficient than the AC/5 (since its heavier?), and shouldn it not gain in the double shot mode?

The Gauss Rifle doesn't seem as great as it sometimes perceived. I believe a big factor in the favoritism of the Gauss Rifle was that there was only one mech that could field 2 of the larger ballistic weapons - the Catapult K2. And the Gauss Rifle still has the highest DPS of all available mechs, and the highest alpha strike damage, and still allow an XL Engine. The AC/20 high crit slot requirements make it less attractive for these purposes, and it's low range doesn't help it either. With the Cataphract we now have a mech that can field other ballistic weapon combinations, for example Quad AC/5 - this opens up new opportunities, and at least allows to surpass the Dual Gauss Rifle's damage output (even if not its alpha strike capability.)

The missiles seem to operate in an entirely different playing field. Is this warranted? Maybe, they tend to spread their damage, and some of them have unique locking mechanics. Still, it seems a bit off, and one wonders if adjustments aren't necessary.


Low Damage (Suitable for Low to Medium Mech Chassis)
Posted Image
The Medium Laser and SMall Laser once again stick out among the ballistic and energy weapons as extremely efficient. Very few weapons can compete here, and it overall seems as if as a light or medium mech, medium or smalls should make out the most out of your weapon arsenal. It may be noticeable here that the Medium Laser has the same efficiency for all targeted engagement times - that basically means that the build required for these "TETs" doesn't actually need any extra heat sinks - its engine double heat sinks are sufficient.



High Damage Weight Requirements
Posted Image
It's notable that you can achieve a lot of damage with little weight. It should be obvious that the low figures for the engagment time fo 15 second is primarily possible with the engine heat sinks.
It is notable again how little you need for a good damage output with medium or small lasers, and how much you need for PPCs, Pulse LAsers and ER Lasers. The heat is really costly.

Maybe as a tip to understand some figures - when a weapon does have the same weight requirement for every targeted engagement time, it probably needs no additional heat sinks to avoid overheating in the targeted engagement time. I set the targeted engagement number and the targeted engagement durations so that the same amount of ammo and damage would be achieved after all engagements - based on the assumptions that you still need to bring the same damage potential to defeat your opponents, whether you do it with 15 second potshots or 30 second brawls.

This may also suggest that these builds will be able to sustain their fire even longer than the targeted engagement time, which can be very handy if you cannot retreat in time - or allow you to add just one or two twons of extra weight for a side weapon.
Low Damage Weight Requirements
Posted Image
The low damage figure is really low -with smalls or mediums it's extremely trival to achieve and doesn't need many additional heat sinks. It seems very unwise to take much larger weapons, the jump is too extremle. The "Gauss Raven" doesn't look like such a great idea here - and it's questionable that the range advantage is that great in practice.
Contrasting Low and High Damage Weight Requirements

Posted Image

Posted Image

One observation I take from this is - being heavy isn't all that attractive damage-wise - you can already deal a lot of damage with low weight weapons. Maybe that#s a reason why Mediums remain so popular? It'S not just the lag shield, the light mechs can only use the ligher weapons, bu the lighter weapons are much more efficient and you can get powerful damage builds out of them, allowing you to fight enemies above your weight class.

General Conclusion

Ballistics look relatively good, though some could need a little help. Energy weapons seem to be in extremes - the Large Laser now looks good, but the medium and small laser too good, while the ER Large Laser, the pulse lasers and the PPCs need help.

MG and Flamer are extremely weak, so it's no surprise we don't really see them anymore on the battlefield.

If you didn't see any big surprises here and all knew this already and wonder what's all the fuss and charts are about - remember that these are charts based on mathematical properties. They are not anecdotical data or server statistics. But if they seem to fit what you already observed - the methodology may be sound.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 December 2012 - 05:47 AM.


#2 Heeden

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:16 AM

How well do MLas and SLas compete at ranges over 100m and 300m?

#3 Ikarti Danaro

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

HOW ABOUT WE LEAVE WEAPON BALANCE THE **** ALONE FOR ONCE UNLESS IT'S DIRECTLY RELATED TO MAKING BAD WEAPONS NO ONE USES SOMEWHAT VIABLE. NO MORE MISSILE TWEAKS. NO MORE NERFING ANYTHING.

The more posts about OMG WEAPON BALANCE HERE IS MY "EXPERT OPINION" we have, the more PGI is going to think it's the most vital issue facing this game right now, and it isn't even close. There's all sorts of bugs and crashes and new player experience to be handled than stuff that's been covered dozens of times already.

#4 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

View PostIkarti Danaro, on 08 December 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

HOW ABOUT WE LEAVE WEAPON BALANCE THE **** ALONE FOR ONCE UNLESS IT'S DIRECTLY RELATED TO MAKING BAD WEAPONS NO ONE USES SOMEWHAT VIABLE. NO MORE MISSILE TWEAKS. NO MORE NERFING ANYTHING.

The more posts about OMG WEAPON BALANCE HERE IS MY "EXPERT OPINION" we have, the more PGI is going to think it's the most vital issue facing this game right now, and it isn't even close. There's all sorts of bugs and crashes and new player experience to be handled than stuff that's been covered dozens of times already.

I leave it to PGI to prioritize this issue and just state what's more important to me. I am not even sure that the same guys that tweaks weapon balance also fixes my lag problems.

Quote

How well do MLas and SLas compete at ranges over 100m and 300m?

Depends on how fast your mech is. From my perspective, range is something that makes weapon better the higher it is - but I do not believe that double the range means a weapon is twice as good.

#5 shabowie

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:31 PM

This is useful info, PGI should pay attention.

LOL at the guys telling Mustrum he wasted his time doing this, writing multiple paragraphs that basically amount to telling him to F off. Wow that's really useful, time well spent gents.

Edited by shabowie, 08 December 2012 - 04:01 PM.


#6 JimSuperBleeder

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

6) The AC/2 could use a nerf - potentially a mixed nerf/buff - a lower rate of fire, but more ammo per ton?


http://www.youtube.c...yK4-_3K0E#t=41s

Edited by JimSuperBleeder, 08 December 2012 - 03:41 PM.


#7 FerretGR

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

View Postshabowie, on 08 December 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

LOL at the guys telling Mustrum he wasted his time doing this, writing multiple paragraphs that basically amount to telling him to F off.


Indeed... guy writes a thesis about how Mustrum should **** off because Mustrum wrote a thesis. Oh my.

I'm glad Mustrum remembers what it means to be a beta tester and takes it seriously. What do you guys think it is we're supposed to be doing here, stomping around for the sake of stomping around? Being nothing more than a number counting toward server load numbers? If that's all you want to do, knock yourself out, but personally, I'm glad there are folks like Mustrum willing to do more... folks like him, using data analysis, have helped to tweak this game since the devs opened the doors. I think he's doing great work and I hope he keeps it up!

#8 SpiralRazor

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:05 PM

View PostIkarti Danaro, on 08 December 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

HOW ABOUT WE LEAVE WEAPON BALANCE THE **** ALONE FOR ONCE UNLESS IT'S DIRECTLY RELATED TO MAKING BAD WEAPONS NO ONE USES SOMEWHAT VIABLE. NO MORE MISSILE TWEAKS. NO MORE NERFING ANYTHING.

The more posts about OMG WEAPON BALANCE HERE IS MY "EXPERT OPINION" we have, the more PGI is going to think it's the most vital issue facing this game right now, and it isn't even close. There's all sorts of bugs and crashes and new player experience to be handled than stuff that's been covered dozens of times already.




While I agree that the game breaking bugs and netcode are serious issues....it is still mighty annoying to have overpowerful and completely gimped weapons in the game at this piont.

#9 WolvesX

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

Just one word:

RANGE

--------------------------------------------------------






By only calcualting the weight, damage, DPS you forget abvout the vastly different ranges of the different weapons.

ERPPC opt. 820m
MG opt. 90

I don't think that a SL with 90 opt. is such a big threat.
Also the ML got a opt. range of 270... not too efficent for me.

But I really really admire your dedication into balancing this game, GREAT WORK!!!

EDIT: I think I like nearly every post of you MustrumRidcully you are a great guy!

EDIT2: Buff stuff instead of nerf it, just my opinion.

Edited by WolvesX, 08 December 2012 - 04:27 PM.


#10 MWHawke

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:43 PM

If they got DHS to double SHS, the difference between SL and ML would not seem so uber cause bigger mechs would be able to use the bigger weapons.

#11 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:06 AM

View PostWolvesX, on 08 December 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Just one word:

RANGE

--------------------------------------------------------








By only calcualting the weight, damage, DPS you forget abvout the vastly different ranges of the different weapons.

ERPPC opt. 820m
MG opt. 90

I didn't forget range. Why do you think the weapons are sorted the way they are? :)
If the game was well balanced*, we should see a downward sloping line from the shortest range to the longest range weapon. The exact angle of the slope is something that would need to be determined.

Of course, once we knew what the slope should be, we could also take it into account in the efficiency calculation, and instead get a line that's parallel to the x-axis.

Quote

EDIT2: Buff stuff instead of nerf it, just my opinion.

I would generally agree, but not always. Every time yo buff a weapon, you also increase the average damage output of mechs in the game, which in turn makes the game faster. That's why I would focus on identifying what your baseline should be, and buff or nerf from there.

Unless, of course, you would also be willing to buff armour values. But when you start doing that, you're effectively just nerfing every weapon. And you suddenly have to look into things like ammo per ton.


*) And my efficiency calculations hold any weight :(

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 December 2012 - 02:16 AM.


#12 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:22 AM

View PostMWHawke, on 08 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

If they got DHS to double SHS, the difference between SL and ML would not seem so uber cause bigger mechs would be able to use the bigger weapons.

It is not quite that easy. There is another poster that illustrates this well - with fully fledged out-of-engine dual heat sinks, everyone benefits, but that includes also lights and mediums. There are nice Cicada and Hunchback 4P builds for that. So any advantage the heavier mechs get,w ill be eaten up by the advantage the lighter mechs will have. But the devs still got to the wrong conclusion IMO - the problem weren't "real" DHS, the problem were the weapons that were imbalanced in the first place.

While I would prefer they'd find a fix that make stock mechs more viable, if they can't, don't want to, or whatever, dual-valued double heat sinks and weapon tweaks can work as well. It's sad that stock mechs work much worse in MW:O than they did in the table top, but if they believe that will convince trial mech users to shell out money to earn more money or buy mechs, and not turn too many people off, well, then they are free to go ahead with that.

#13 Glythe

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

Small laser and medium laser are miles above everything else in terms of weight/heat/damage ratios. We've been saying that for a long time. Compare it to something like the Large Pulse Laser and there is literally no comparison. There have been hundreds of suggestions but there seems to be no swaying the Devs.

The game was almost at a balanced point when DHS were 'accidently' broken when first implemented.

WoT is biased against German tanks and favors Russian tanks.

MWO seems to favor light mechs and punishes Assault mechs in the same fashion.

How so? Light mechs run on small and medium lasers. Assaults like the Atlas were built with the Large laser and Large Pulse Laser in mind. DHS still work fine for lights and do literally nothing for most Assaults.

Honestly we should just have engine heat sinks giving 1.4 per unit and external heat sinks as pure double heat sinks. That way lights have to really go nuts on heat containment (and in so doing cannot bring many weapons). And then suddenly the heavy weapons can be considered as viable for the heavier mechs.

#14 SpiralRazor

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:49 AM

View PostGlythe, on 09 December 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

Small laser and medium laser are miles above everything else in terms of weight/heat/damage ratios. We've been saying that for a long time. Compare it to something like the Large Pulse Laser and there is literally no comparison. There have been hundreds of suggestions but there seems to be no swaying the Devs.

The game was almost at a balanced point when DHS were 'accidently' broken when first implemented.

WoT is biased against German tanks and favors Russian tanks.

MWO seems to favor light mechs and punishes Assault mechs in the same fashion.

How so? Light mechs run on small and medium lasers. Assaults like the Atlas were built with the Large laser and Large Pulse Laser in mind. DHS still work fine for lights and do literally nothing for most Assaults.

Honestly we should just have engine heat sinks giving 1.4 per unit and external heat sinks as pure double heat sinks. That way lights have to really go nuts on heat containment (and in so doing cannot bring many weapons). And then suddenly the heavy weapons can be considered as viable for the heavier mechs.




Agreed...1.4 for engines and engine mounts, 2.0 for internals.

#15 shabowie

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:51 AM

View PostGlythe, on 09 December 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

Honestly we should just have engine heat sinks giving 1.4 per unit and external heat sinks as pure double heat sinks. That way lights have to really go nuts on heat containment (and in so doing cannot bring many weapons). And then suddenly the heavy weapons can be considered as viable for the heavier mechs.


Disagree with that. Most mechs don't have many external heat sinks because of space limitations, including assault mechs. It would represent an overall nerf to most builds. True doubles for all DHS would just be slightly better and is like the bare minimum change needed. Ultimate would be much higher SHS value (maybe double, but that's purely hypothetical), all DHS double that, then flatten heat capacity to 30 with real consequences (reduced speed, sluggish controls, shots randomly deviating from crosshair, ammo cookoffs, chance of shudown, system failure) for carrying waste heat ala TT.

Edited by shabowie, 09 December 2012 - 02:53 AM.


#16 Kobold

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:13 AM

Lots of math confirms what TT grognards have known for decades: Standard inner sphere medium laser is still the weapon of choice for efficient massed damage dealing, when it comes to damage per ton. (ridiculous short range of small laser exempts it)

#17 TheGrog

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:20 AM

View PostKobold, on 09 December 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Lots of math confirms what TT grognards have known for decades: Standard inner sphere medium laser is still the weapon of choice for efficient massed damage dealing, when it comes to damage per ton. (ridiculous short range of small laser exempts it)


Pretty much. A fair amount of the original idea of teired weapons was based around shooting something long ranged and often hot (PPC, LL, LRMs) and then falling back on a medium laser battery.

Plus the added problem due to a lack of range modifiers. In TT when you had something with a large laser facing down a bunch of medium lasers at least the large laser was easier to hit with. In MWO only the small variants are easier to hit with. Quite frankly, I suspect that it should be the large variants of lasers that have the shorter beam time instead of the small ones.

The charts in short: flamers, MGs, large (pulse) lasers, PPCs, and all ER variants thereof suck to varying degrees with the large laser being the best of the lot. That fits with my play experience pretty well. When was the last time you saw a LPL? I tried using them and the heat killed me even with DHSs. A pair of them were literally the only weapons I could fire, and that kind of damage output won't cut it at 300 m and closer unless you are a damn better shot than I. Flamers and MGs are just annoyance weapons, and I think 'why didn't you mount a small laser'? I occasonally see PPCs, or more rarely the ER weapons, but the heat demands limit them to harassment sniping at best and PPCs projectiles are just too hard to aim at range. Once they act like actual, you know, ENERGY weapons instead of being slower than many AC shells they may be worth noticing. But right now when I see a PPC mech show on the target data I look for a more dangerous target first.

On the flip side, how many mechs do you see with all the medium lasers and SRMs they can fit?

Edited by TheGrog, 09 December 2012 - 04:22 AM.


#18 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:30 AM

View PostKobold, on 09 December 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Lots of math confirms what TT grognards have known for decades: Standard inner sphere medium laser is still the weapon of choice for efficient massed damage dealing, when it comes to damage per ton. (ridiculous short range of small laser exempts it)

But TT grognards may also point out that the awesome damage potential of the medium laser is somewhat reduced in effect by its spreading its damage around so much in Battletech. That drawback is eliminated in MW:O, so the true power of the Medium Lasers can manifest itself fully. I just hope PGI isn't gonna react by just increasing the medium laser heat- that will mostly make stock mechs even worse - they should lower damage and heat together.

#19 Tikkamasala

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:40 AM

Quote

OP

Before you make these bold statements to buff/nerf specific weapons you should take all the relevant factors such as
  • range (the balancing distribution for this doesn't need to be a linear range dependence as you suggested),
  • time on target vs burn length of laser weapons (due to maneuvering/torso rotations the slower damage application of standard lasers often reduces the overall damage; therefore the comparison of different weapon types is not as straightforward as comparing just their maximum damage) and
  • hardpoint limitations (most mech chassis are restricted to a rather low number of hardpoints of a certain type, e.g. 0-3 for all raven variants, so it is not an option to install even more small lasers just to reach a target damage number)
into consideration. Perhaps a disclaimer as part of your tl;dr would not go amiss. Other than that thanks for your charts in this and at least another thread.

Edited by Tikkamasala, 09 December 2012 - 04:41 AM.


#20 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:43 AM

And here a list of weapon stats that can make the curve a bit "nicer":



ThePosted Image

The missile stats are left untouched for now.

Ballistcs
For the ballistics, I did adjust the ammo/ton rates to improve their efficiency in some cases, trying to make it consistently and then tweak rate of fire or heat values as needed to fit a smoother curve. Now all Autocannons carry basically 200 points of damage per ton of ammo.
AC/20: Received an upgrade to its rate of fire.
AC/10: The ammo boost seemed enough and required no further changes. If this is questionable - adjust its heat per shot.
AC/5: Also only recieved the ammo boost.
LB10 X-AC: No changes. In fact, I even omitted the ammo change.
Ultra AC/5 / Double Shot Ultra AC/5: Base Cooldown lowered to 2.25, jam change reduced to 0.15, and average jam duration set to 5.5 seconds, so its average rate of fire in double shot mode is 1.54.
Gauss Rifle: Lowered its rate of fire a bit to 2. This became necessary as it showed a considerably drop compared to other weapons.
AC/2: Increased its cooldown to 1.25 seconds.

Energy Weapons
Flamer: Increase damage and heat to 0.8 per shot.
Small Laser: Heat set to 2.6 per shot.
Small Pulse Laser: Heat set to 3.5 per shot.
Medium Pulse Laser: Damage set to 5, Heat to 3.5
Medium Laser: Damage set to 4.5.
Large Pulse Laser: Heat lowered to 6, and beam duration lowered to 0.5
Large Laser: Beam duration lowered to 0.75
ER Large LAser: Heat lowered to 8.25, and beam duration lowered to 0.75.
PPC: Heat lowered to 6.5
ER PPC: Heat lowered to 8.5


Resulting Charts
Posted Image
The above stats were all "optimized" for the 20 second time frame. Weapons can go stronger or weaker comparatively whether you shoot for shorter durations or longer durations. The weapons with the 450 to 540 range bracket have roughly the same efficiency - it was difficult to get a smooth drop off, and the range difference doesn't seem that big anyway.

Notable in general: The longer an engagement lasts, the better ballistic weapons are against energy weapons - hinting that energy weapon focused mechs will always prefer shorter engagements.

The Ultra AC/5 is still pretty good by these charts. I hope that the unpredictable nature of the Jam may justify this - if not, lowering the base cooldown of the weapon would be an obvious way to approach this. The AC/10 may still need a small push, as do the AC/20. For the efficiency, changing their heat does not have any drastic effects here, as neither weapon really runs into the need for extra double heat sinks for this scenarios.


Posted Image
For lighter mechs, ballistic weapons get a lot less interesting than energy weapons, which isn't that different from now. The engine heat sinks really become an important force to consider here. Which may point out that the current approach to double heat sinks remains problematic, even if we tweak weapon values.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 December 2012 - 05:49 AM.






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