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Table Top Vs Online


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Poll: TT VS Online (599 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the game try to balance more towards the tabletop version

  1. Yes (246 votes [41.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.07%

  2. No (286 votes [47.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.75%

  3. It is (44 votes [7.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.35%

  4. Whats the tabletop version (23 votes [3.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.84%

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#1 Ryolacap

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

Edit: I also want to say I love this game, it is frustrating at time but hecka fun.

Also keep the legend alive, stay in the Online but give the TT a go with actuall live friends, you will have a blast and support a great game.
http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/battletech/

With 30+ years of existence, the Tabletop verion Battle Tech has become a very balanced and fun experience in gaming, been playtested by thousands of players, and has won awards in design.

Do you believe the online version should try to hold true to the vision of the tabletopgame, is it, or do you think it should not.


I have noticed many basic rules hold true, and seem to work well, especially in the mechlab. Things I have noticed out of whack is in game balance of weapons and equipment. In TT weapons fire once a round unless special rules apply, in online there are DPS limits, heat sink limits and certain equipment that does not line up.

How do you feel about how they are applying the rules?

Not a discussion of what needs nerfed but if the game is on track.

Edited by Ryolacap, 27 December 2012 - 08:46 PM.


#2 Pht

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

It seems the to-hit modifiers for the individual weapons and the hit-location tables have not been implemented and that has led to drastic consequences for combat (dual reticles, doubled armor, weapons damage vs armor ratios out of whack, etc).

Namely, these two mechanics describe the combat capability of the 'Mechs. Kinda hard to make a game that simulates combat in a BTUniverse Mech... without simulating the 'Mechs combat performance... it's ability to get its weapons aligned to hit the target that it's mechwarrior is indicating with his reticule on the hud in the cockpit.

Otherwise, the game has been pretty good. :P

PS: One need NOT make all the weapons fire every ten seconds. If you want to control refire rates and keep the balance, tweak heat values on the weapons. It's the heat output that controls refire rates for every weapon in the TT. Fire faster than every 10, add heat - slower, less heat.

Edited by Pht, 01 January 2013 - 06:05 PM.


#3 keith

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:59 PM

pls wait while i turn my mech 60 degrees to get into a firing arc. next let me get out a dice to see if my hand will press the mouse to hit u in the head. an online FPS game should not be balanced towards a broad game. too many different factors play into it, lag and playerskill are the main ones

#4 Nauht

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

You have to remember they started with TT values. Everything thats changed since then has been due to gameplay feedback.

They found out early on that TT armour values don't work. No-one liked being shut out of a match in he first 30 secs due to one alpha, hence double armour values. Weapons have been tweaked due to gameplay balance as well. Otherwise we'd be back where we were in CB with the SL reigning supreme. You never needed (and didn't want ) to run the LL now.

The game has evolved for the better for an online competitive environment.

I was a big supporter for sticking to TT in the early days but realise now that sticking to it strictly doesn't work for a FPS game.

#5 Kousagi

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

The weapon fire rates are in TT rules as well... They are the Solaris rules, were the turns are broken in to 2.5 sec's I think it was instead of the 10 sec turns of the normal game. Most of the balance is coming from all over TT, even from level 3 rules. Though they did say at the start that TT would be a base line, then they would balance from there is things will change from turn based to real time.

#6 Marcus Tanner

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

The tabletop has weapons firing once every 10 seconds, which would be incredibly slow for this kind of game and mean it leans heavily toward alpha-strike builds. To that end I certainly support the doubled armor, doubled structure (it's not actually double, I know), and roughly doubled rate of fire, give or take (often tripled, I know). However, it would be nice to see weapons that pay dearly for their hole-punching or crit-seeking quality (AC-20s in particular) see some kind of improvement to compensate for being a lot less good at their job of creating exposed locations.

The ranges in tabletop are artificially low for the sake of making the game playable on a normal table. What PGI has done with with regard to the extra range, but half damage beyond normal range seems perfectly acceptable to me. It better follows the spirit of the background where the tabletop had to compromise.

The 1.4 heat sinks outside the engine seems silly to me. If they just want to stop people from boating lasers for alpha purposes, like the 9 medium laser hunchback, then do it some other way. For instance, if lasers that fired simultaneously generated huge amounts of additional heat (re:blazer) then it wouldn't be such a problem, I think (and it would encourage sequential fire which looks more like what you see on the tabletop). Bringing a fully loaded Hunchback from something like 50 dissipation down to 44 doesn't seem like it's worth the one-finger salute to designs that are canonically heat-intensive, like the AWS-9M.

Doubling fire rates without doubling heat dissipation makes a number of mechs look silly, but does get us the intended effect of making heat more relevant. Removing or vastly reducing the heat effects that come before shutdown (slowing, penalties to hit things, and possible ammo explosions) while effectively shrinking the heat scale somewhat seems like an acceptable compromise to me. It brings a somewhat more intuitive understanding of heat in the context of this user interface. Still, I wish that heat-slowing were a part of this game as it does come up in the background quite often.

I understand the difference in how LRMs function, including the increased difficulty of connecting with a target combined with easier indirect fire and more damage per missile (but spread out over a wider area). I think they're a bit too strong right now in games where the opposition has no ECM (and too weak in games where the opponent does have ECM), but that's a complaint about the number, not the format.

Limits to radar for the purposes of increasing the effectiveness of stealth seem reasonable to me. I don't like ignoring the 360-view that mechs are supposed to have, but I can deal with it if it makes for games that are more entertaining.

The scale of mechs is off compared to tabletop. In the board game, mechs are all roughly the same size regardless of their weight. The mass is just a function of how durable the skeleton and muscles, not how physically large the vehicle is. However, not only is this huge difference between the scale of an Atlas and a Jenner more intuitive, but gives light mechs an advantage in durability that they don't have in the tabletop (smaller target). Closing the gap in power between assaults and lights is a good thing in the context of this kind of game, so I don't mind the deviation there.

Taking Narc (for the most part a piece of junk in the tabletop) and kicking in the nuts repeatedly before handing to the MWO community perplexes me. Even if it had an infinite duration and lasted as long as the section it was attached to it would still be pretty bad in MWO. That's a place where abandoning the tabletop has me scratching my head.

They re-write for a lot of what Beagle does makes sense to me, as the effects don't translate well and it doesn't do much in the tabletop anyway.

ECM in MWO is silly for a number of reasons better discussed elsewhere. I realize, however, that keeping it to pure tabletop rules would probably leave it not effective enough (particularly without effective C3 computers for it to counter). I don't mind it picking up a little more functionality than the tabletop for the purposes of making sure that it gets used more often than Narc, but what we have now is a radical departure from every other game and from the background. In this case, I'd prefer if i were reigned in to something more like the tabletop version.

The AC-2 and similar weapons are pieces of junk in the tabletop, at least for their tonnage (if not BV). I don't mind MWO changing balance in ways that are difficult if not impossible for the tabletop to manage. I don't think that PGI has done a good enough job at this to be handing out full-time salaries for it, but in principle I don't mind, for instance, changing fire rates to make some weapons more effective and others less.

All in all there are places where I would prefer the game stay closer to home, but many of the changes seem appropriate.

#7 OldGrayDonkey

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

I got to vote no. While the TT has probably been tweaked very well, we aren't rolling dice. I am still in the sim crowd who wants to see more physics based decisions grounded in reality, rather than, well, it might work that way, roll the dice to decide....

Awwwww, a 2. Guess streaks can shoot through mountains. Make it so!

#8 Sandslice

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

The tabletop game makes a few assumptions for simulation's sake, which are hard to reflect in a video game - after all, a MechWarrior is driving a tank of 6-15 meters of height... and acting alone as the pilot, gunner, and navigator. Every physical and mental stress imposed on a tank crew AND many of those imposed on fighter pilots are experienced by a MechWarrior.

On the tabletop, this is reflected in not always having "stable" hit locations - things beyond misguessing your opponent's twitch reaction have an impact. Sweat in your eyes, your 'Mech's gait, the effects of localised ECM or EMP on your targeting systems, all of them contribute to attacks that deal damage, but not always where you want it.

On the tabletop, these systems, along with simply Murphy interactions, cause your flights of missiles to not all burrow into your preferred target location. Missiles wander off course, explode early, fail to explode on time, run out of fuel too soon... and missile guidance is as affected by local conditions as your own targeting computer. Thus, having missile hit tables and spread-out damage.

These don't work so well in video games: if you aim at a leg, you reasonably expect to hit the leg (or miss because you misjudged the opponent or got lagshielded.) On the tabletop, an Atlas has 42 armour points; and it's the 1-in-9 chance of that leg being hit that makes this armour last a long time. In the game, the same armour would be slashed through at will (assuming an opponent felt like bothering) because you can deliberately target the leg without penalty.

The video game drifting from the tabletop in certain aspects - aspects that ideally make for compelling gameplay - is fine.

#9 Terran123rd

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

Pragmatic adaptation. It's a good thing when trying to adapt a tabletop turn-based strategy game into a real-time shooter.

#10 Ryvucz

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

View PostRyolacap, on 26 December 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

With 30+ years of existence, the Tabletop verion Battle Tech has become a very balanced and fun experience in gaming, been playtested by thousands of players, and has won awards in design.

Do you believe the online version should try to hold true to the vision of the tabletopgame, is it, or do you think it should not.


I have noticed many basic rules hold true, and seem to work well, especially in the mechlab. Things I have noticed out of whack is in game balance of weapons and equipment. In TT weapons fire once a round unless special rules apply, in online there are DPS limits, heat sink limits and certain equipment that does not line up.

How do you feel about how they are applying the rules?

Not a discussion of what needs nerfed but if the game is on track.


This is bordering one of the rules seen in this link, maybe change the title?

http://mwomercs.com/...ing-ettiquette/

#11 Mr Mantis

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

The table top rules are a good base, after that they have to make it work in a different setting altogether. it would not make sence to do it any other way.

#12 Trauglodyte

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

The issues with ECM that you speak of, and what so many people complain about, is the byproduct of taking a table top system based in a top down (ie, the eye of god) view point, and putting it into a e-world with 3d rules. If your mech was equiped with ECM in TT it wasn't invisible because you're sitting at the board looking at the opposing player move his mech. And in TT, ECM didn't affect missiles because all missile systems were based on to-hit roles within line of sight (with the exception of indirect fire and C3). Also, we didn't really have sensors because you saw everything on the board. In MWO, all of that has been thrown aside because every lance is considered to have built in C3 and all missiles act within indirect fire capabilities. AND, of course, when we're rolling around in Lake City or Caldera, there isn't a gigantic arm reach down from the sky moving your mech. :P Because of this, PGI had to make certain adjustments to the system to make it a valid and desirable piece of equipment. So, ECM limits your sensor range and time it takes to pull up data on your target, etc etc. That isn't to say that they didn't go a little overboard. Hell, you could argue that missile systems in game are equally overboard and I'd be right there with you screaming it from the mountain top. But, the system has to have certain additions to make it something more than dead weight (ie, BAP). And that is one thing that people don't remember when they go to complaining about ECM - it isn't a TT carbon copy because TT game play is entirely different then MWO game play. So, things much change with the changing environment.

#13 Davers

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

There had to be changes. Pilots are way more accurate in MWO than in TT. No matter how 'close' you were to your opponent in TT it didn't change the spread of SRMs, but here I can walk right up and have every single missile hit, every time.

Also no physical attacks is a big game changer. TT is a game of wildly inaccurate mechs that walk up and kick each other.

Mechwarrior is not Battletech.

#14 Trauglodyte

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

Can you imagine if MWO was 100% equal to TT? It would be boring to no end.

#15 semalferuzA

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

Going from turn based with probabilities to real-time with player skill the two games cannot be identical. Variation needs to occur. I think they've done a fine job so far but things obviously need tweaking.

#16 Ryolacap

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

Well, of course their are going to be concrete adaptions to certain abstract mechanics, ie dice rolling. And maybe not ten second shooting but personally some of the balance decisions in regards to weapons seem to favor certain weapon types and alpha strikes, where as things like the AC20 become a really big broomstick (boomstick) on a janitor mech. Although, you do find a weakened opponent its a 1 shot kill.

I really hope they add colission. I just read the Cyclops (I think) kills lights by raming them.

Edited by Ryolacap, 26 December 2012 - 08:38 PM.


#17 Xavier Wulf

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:53 PM

I understand why die-hard fans want this to be the table top game, but this is not an exact replica of the TT. If you want to play the table top so badly, go play it.

The idea of using the exact table top rules and values is absurd and impractical. This game would never be balanced if it were to follow those rules to the letter.

#18 Ryolacap

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:51 PM

View PostRyolacap, on 26 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Well, of course their are going to be concrete adaptions to certain abstract mechanics, ie dice rolling. And maybe not ten second shooting but personally some of the balance decisions in regards to weapons seem to favor certain weapon types and alpha strikes, where as things like the AC20 become a really big broomstick (boomstick) on a janitor mech. Although, you do find a weakened opponent its a 1 shot kill.

I really hope they add colission. I just read the Cyclops (I think) kills lights by raming them.



Not to mention this games weapon balance favors smaller weapons and alpha strikes who uses the smaller weapons and can use alpha strike hit and run tactics, good time to be a light

#19 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

25 no to 13 yes where people are figuring out that the balance the devs are striving for just doesnt work

View PostTrauglodyte, on 26 December 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

The issues with ECM that you speak of, and what so many people complain about, is the byproduct of taking a table top system based in a top down (ie, the eye of god) view point, and putting it into a e-world with 3d rules. If your mech was equiped with ECM in TT it wasn't invisible because you're sitting at the board looking at the opposing player move his mech. And in TT, ECM didn't affect missiles because all missile systems were based on to-hit roles within line of sight (with the exception of indirect fire and C3). Also, we didn't really have sensors because you saw everything on the board. In MWO, all of that has been thrown aside because every lance is considered to have built in C3 and all missiles act within indirect fire capabilities. AND, of course, when we're rolling around in Lake City or Caldera, there isn't a gigantic arm reach down from the sky moving your mech. :P Because of this, PGI had to make certain adjustments to the system to make it a valid and desirable piece of equipment. So, ECM limits your sensor range and time it takes to pull up data on your target, etc etc. That isn't to say that they didn't go a little overboard. Hell, you could argue that missile systems in game are equally overboard and I'd be right there with you screaming it from the mountain top. But, the system has to have certain additions to make it something more than dead weight (ie, BAP). And that is one thing that people don't remember when they go to complaining about ECM - it isn't a TT carbon copy because TT game play is entirely different then MWO game play. So, things much change with the changing environment.


its also WRONG per the piece of equipment
Guardian doesnt block Streak

#20 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:15 PM

View PostXavier Wulf, on 26 December 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I understand why die-hard fans want this to be the table top game, but this is not an exact replica of the TT. If you want to play the table top so badly, go play it.

The idea of using the exact table top rules and values is absurd and impractical. This game would never be balanced if it were to follow those rules to the letter.


man I wish my thread I did on this was still retrievable. It disapeared with the new forums -.- but Id said they should drop the table values for the game and was flamed for saying that because if you change that you make it "generic mech shooter" (or "battletech flavored" - to take mecules's quote, referring to maple flavored syrup as opposed to actual maple syrup).





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