22 replies to this topic

[ArmyOfWon]

Right now information sharing combines LOS principles with Radar sensors. If you are both within Radar range and have a clear Line of Sight to the target you may target and share information.

I propose we decouple these two discrete actions. You should be able to lock on to any enemy Mech within Line of Sight range (defined in Tactical Operations) whereas you share targeting information with Radar range. PGIs recent tweaking of TAG to near-LOS ranges I think is just a way for this notion to happen, although by making TAG being used by the LRM support instead of the spotter.

;tldr Target what you see (Gather information on enemy, regardless of ECM); Share what radar detects (Excluding ECM sheilded mechs). Give TAG back to spotters. Make ECM less powerful and more in-line with source material usage.

Edited by ArmyOfWon, 03 April 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[Szaesse]

I could not agree more.

[StalaggtIKE]

This makes a lot of sense. How did this get buried?

[Willie Sauerland]

ArmyOfWon, on 30 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

;tldr Target what you see; Share what radar detects. Give TAG back to spotters. Make ECM less powerful and more in-line with source material usage.

Targeting what you can see is already accomplished with your Mark I sensor - your eyeballs. ECM does not prevent you from firing anything except streaks (which is wrong). As such this is already implemented as you state so I'm not sure what the suggestion actually does...

StalaggtIKE, on 10 February 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

This makes a lot of sense. How did this get buried?

See above.

[StalaggtIKE]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Targeting what you can see is already accomplished with your Mark I sensor - your eyeballs.

That has nothing to do with this post; we're not discussing spotting. This thread is referring to radar targeting. Which is accomplished through electronic signals fed to the sensors of the giant robots we're piloting. One does not pilot millions of dollars worth of machinery, only relying on his eyeballs to seek out danger. Especially one that can walk on two legs. LOL!!

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 February 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

That has nothing to do with this post; we're not discussing spotting. This thread is referring to radar targeting. Which is accomplished through electronic signals fed to the sensors of the giant robots we're piloting. One does not pilot millions of dollars worth of machinery, only relying on his eyeballs to seek out danger. LOL!!

And those signals are blocked by the ECM which is clearly seen in the TT Rulebooks. I'm still not sure what this suggestion is really trying to, well, suggest.

ECM does not prevent your mech from functioning. Targeting requires sensors and computers which receive input from radar. As such, since ECM negates radar, targeting functions would also be negated except through the use of your eyeballs and skills.

Forget not, this is a game where technology is not well understood or even the knowledge of how it works is lost. As such, yes, you would have to rely on your eyeballs even with a giant robot worth oodles of money...

[Moogy]

This would also give an incentive to players to target mechs. This concept would help in that respect.

[StalaggtIKE]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

And those signals are blocked by the ECM which is clearly seen in the TT Rulebooks. I'm still not sure what this suggestion is really trying to, well, suggest.

Currently within the game radar and missile lock-on are of the same mechanic. You see a target, hold reticle over it and if you have any form of guided missiles it will eventually grant a lock. What the OP is suggestion is to simply break the marrying of these two separate technologies. Also I suggest you review your TT rulebooks; ECM does not provide stealth, thus the reason Stealth armor is created. ECM sole purpose was to disable electronic devices that enhance standard sensors:

• BAP
  
• NARC
  
• TAG
  
• Artemis
  
• C3 (basically an Ad-Hoc wifi, that allowed for radar sharing)

Later the abilities to produce ghost targets and lock-on time increase were added to make ECM more prevalent. Also it can be coupled with stealth armor and null signature to produce stealth. However, this combination is considerably heavier and also produces heat.

Quote

ECM does not prevent your mech from functioning.

I see nothing in my or the OP's post that suggest that ECM prevents a mech from functioning. I believe it was you that stated that the pilots are only relying on their eyeballs to see each other... lol.

Quote

Targeting requires sensors and computers which receive input from radar. As such, since ECM negates radar, targeting functions would also be negated except through the use of your eyeballs and skills.
Forget not, this is a game where technology is not well understood or even the knowledge of how it works is lost. As such, yes, you would have to rely on your eyeballs even with a giant robot worth oodles of money...

Perhaps I see your confusion. I assume you believe that the only forms of radar are through sonar, using pulse and/or ping. Though that is still used today, it is wat outdated and utilized as backup to newer methods such as:

• electro-optical - functions as a virtual eye; it points out things that it does not recognize
  
• infrared - pretty much the same as above, except it also utilizes heat or infrared
  
• beam riding - laser designation, which is represented in MWO as TAG

Since ECM does not hide silhouettes nor heat signatures, it would not block any los form of radar. Now the static from ECM would disable the sharing of this information.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 February 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[Omar Ravenhurst]

Pretty sure the OP's suggestion could be boiled down to having the missles converge on the point where the crosshairs are at the time of launch in the case of a lack of lock on. Whatever point is being used for the range finder is the same point that should be used as a "dumb" target. TAG could still be used to tighten the spread and perhaps even track in the missles, but the missles wouldn't follow a target as they do with lock on. It is effectively a "direct fire" mode.

This would be an extremely effective counter to ECM, though I'm sure many would say it gives the LRMs too much power. I think it's a good idea, and certainly worth a look.

[ArmyOfWon]

Wow, never thought I'd hear from this thread again! Anyway, right now ECM feels much better than it had before (especially with the 750m TAG band-aid that essentially allows for play as I had described at the cost of a hardpoint and a 1/2 ton, but I digress).

Still, the radar/target/sharing system works as such:

See a mech, press 'R' to target (within 1000m, 750m, or 250m depending upon TAG/ECM combinations), share target info with teammates.

What I had suggested was decoupling targeting information for yourself (e.g. Ability to fire LRM or SSRM) and sharing information with the team. You would share all information of mechs around you, within LOS, not just the one you have targeted personally, relaying multiple mechs from one mech. If you were disrupted by nearby ECM you would not share any information of enemies around you, nor would you receive information, but you could target any enemy you could see, lock on using LRMs or SSRMs to any mech within your LOS, and generally play as normal (without extra team info).

This would be a huge hit to ECM, making ECM not only balanced, but also not mandatory. A side grade. A reason to take 2 more tons of ammo instead of building your mech around it as it is now.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. To be honest I haven't been playing much recently (love the new patch though!), and probably could explain my position better, but right now I'm too exhausted to even worry about it.

[Willie Sauerland]

KamikaziChaser, on 10 February 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

Pretty sure the OP's suggestion could be boiled down to having the missles converge on the point where the crosshairs are at the time of launch in the case of a lack of lock on. Whatever point is being used for the range finder is the same point that should be used as a "dumb" target. TAG could still be used to tighten the spread and perhaps even track in the missles, but the missles wouldn't follow a target as they do with lock on. It is effectively a "direct fire" mode.

This would be an extremely effective counter to ECM, though I'm sure many would say it gives the LRMs too much power. I think it's a good idea, and certainly worth a look.

But this is what is already being done with LRMs... There is no lock-on but the missiles land at the distance you had on your HUD when you fired them.

[Willie Sauerland]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 February 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Words....

Here is an original source in PDF form which I think you should look at as the graphic on page 136 is most instructive how ECM works. People always seem to quote the text, but never put the accompanying graphic with it to illustrate what is being said:

Master Rules (Revised)

As you can see, targeting within the bubble or even through the bubble is quite restricted. I know you and I have disagreed on this point several times already, but given this information, I fail to see how ECM in this game could have been implemented any differently and still stuck to the Canon. It is not "stealth" and does not affect the functioning of your mech (except for the wrong case where SSRMs cannot be fired - they should be able to be dumb fired like regular SRMs).

Given this graphic, I would like to hear how ECM is still implemented incorrectly as I am not seeing it (no matter how opposed people are to it).

Edit: URL Funkiness Fixed

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 10 February 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Volthorne]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Filth

And yet, ECM does not prevent the ACCURATE firing of LRMs through direct or indirect means in the TT, unlike the system we have now. Hmm....

[Willie Sauerland]

Volthorne, on 10 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

And yet, ECM does not prevent the ACCURATE firing of LRMs through direct or indirect means in the TT, unlike the system we have now. Hmm....

Indirect fire is accurate in the game. Not sure what you are on about here. See page 85 of the source I mentioned above.

As for the direct firing of LRMs, the missiles we use are semi-guided by the way they seem to work in game. See page 142 for enlightenment. If they were using the TT version, they would be indirectly fired (page 85).

Since ECM disrupts targeting information acquired by friendly targets (see again that which you have called "filth"), the only method to fire them in a semi-guided fashion is through the use of TAG (Page 147) which appears to me to be properly implemented in the game. As for the indirect firing, that is also correctly implemented and would require more skill in a real-time game.

Whether you like it or not and whether you agree or not, I do not see how ECM is incorrectly implemented (save in the aforementioned post where the SSRM issue was pointed out).

I have provided my source. Would you care to provide a counter source instead of calling my statements "filth"? I don't mind constructive debates, but right now, you seem to be taking this very personally and I'm not sure a reasonable conversation can be had....

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 10 February 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[Volthorne]

Except not. According to the section on ECM (page 136) it does not interfere with target acquisition, or the direct/indirect firing of LRMs, only the advanced equipment that increases it's effective damage. Taking the image on p.136, all 'Mechs that are NOT labeled 'A' would be able to acquire independent target-locks upon 'Mech A.

Edited by Volthorne, 10 February 2013 - 08:51 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Volthorne, on 10 February 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Except not. According to the section on ECM (page 136) it does not interfere with target acquisition, or the direct/indirect firing of LRMs, only the advanced equipment that increases it's effective damage. Taking the image on p.136, all 'Mechs that are NOT labeled 'A' would be able to acquire independent target-locks upon 'Mech A.

Try again. Read the part of what is required for semi-guided munitions (Page 142). Otherwise, they are indirectly fired and are not guided at all (See page 85). In this sense, the game mechanic is broken as you shouldn't get a lock-on without using TAG at all. As such, your argument about ECM is flawed since the game mechanic shouldn't be there anyway.

[Eddrick]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Here is an original source in PDF form which I think you should look at as the graphic on page 136 is most instructive how ECM works. People always seem to quote the text, but never put the accompanying graphic with it to illustrate what is being said:

Master Rules (Revised)

As you can see, targeting within the bubble or even through the bubble is quite restricted. I know you and I have disagreed on this point several times already, but given this information, I fail to see how ECM in this game could have been implemented any differently and still stuck to the Canon. It is not "stealth" and does not affect the functioning of your mech (except for the wrong case where SSRMs cannot be fired - they should be able to be dumb fired like regular SRMs).

Given this graphic, I would like to hear how ECM is still implemented incorrectly as I am not seeing it (no matter how opposed people are to it).

Edit: URL Funkiness Fixed

Thanks for the copy of the rule book. Also, being able to give a sited referance is a huge help.

[CHWarpath]

ArmyOfWon, on 30 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Right now information sharing combines LOS principles with Radar sensors. If you are both within Radar range and have a clear Line of Sight to the target you may target and share information.

I propose we decouple these two discrete actions. You should be able to lock on to any enemy Mech within Line of Sight range (defined in Tactical Operations) whereas you share targeting information with Radar range. PGIs recent tweaking of TAG to near-LOS ranges I think is just a way for this notion to happen, although by making TAG being used by the LRM support instead of the spotter.

;tldr Target what you see; Share what radar detects. Give TAG back to spotters. Make ECM less powerful and more in-line with source material usage.

No, no, and No way. The last thing we need are more LRM kiddies playing this game. LRMS single handedly ruined all previous mechwarrior games when it came to PVP. How many failures do you need in this franchise?

[StalaggtIKE]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Here is an original source in PDF form which I think you should look at as the graphic on page 136 is most instructive how ECM works. People always seem to quote the text, but never put the accompanying graphic with it to illustrate what is being said:

Master Rules (Revised)

As you can see, targeting within the bubble or even through the bubble is quite restricted. I know you and I have disagreed on this point several times already, but given this information, I fail to see how ECM in this game could have been implemented any differently and still stuck to the Canon. It is not "stealth" and does not affect the functioning of your mech (except for the wrong case where SSRMs cannot be fired - they should be able to be dumb fired like regular SRMs).

Given this graphic, I would like to hear how ECM is still implemented incorrectly as I am not seeing it (no matter how opposed people are to it).

Edit: URL Funkiness Fixed

Thanks for posting a digital copy of the rule book. It brings back nostalgic memories.
Decoding the rulebook can be a bit taxing, but this is how I interrupted it.
Here's the diagram:

This is what the rulebook says:

Quote

In the diagram below, the Mech in Hex A is equipped with an ECM Suite, which has an effect radius of 6 (shown as the shaded area). An enemy unit in this area or enemy LOS traced through it is affected. Therefore, the Mech in Hex B is affected because it falls inside the radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex D would also be affected because the LOS passes through the radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex E would not be affected, however, because the LOS does not pass through the radius.

This explained who and how it affects enemy mechs. Next, we are explained what it affects.

Quote

Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and Clan targeting computers.

• Active Probes
  
• Artemis IV FCS
  
• Narc Missile beacon
  
• C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of "cutting off" any C3 equipped unit from its network.

Notice there is no mention of stealth or hidden mechs. Also, note there is no penalty towards sensors, which comes standard equipped with every cockpit. Since C3 is disabled, Mech B can not share target info of A, D and E with Mech C. However both Mech B and C would still be able to self designate targets as long as they maintain los to the given target. Now things change once an obstacle (red circle) is added blocking los, such as in the diagram below:

Now things are a bit different. Mech B can see Mech A, however he can not see D or E. This means he can not target D or E despite the fact, Mech C is looking right at them. Also, Mech C cannot target A despite the fact, Mech B is looking at him. The ECM has disabled C3 thus they can not share this targeting data. Now one more example; let's say Mech C and E are in the same lance. Mech C cannot pass on Mech D info to E due to the ECM radius. However Mech E could pass target D to Mech C because he is not looking through the ECM radius and has uninterrupted los to both Mech C and D.

This boils down to as long as a mech has direct los of an enemy he can target it. However, if this los is broken by ECM, only C3 is disabled, thus the target can not be shared with the rest of the lance.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 February 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

StalaggtIKE, on 10 February 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

This boils down to as long as a mech has direct los of an enemy he can target it. However, if this los is broken by ECM, only C3 is disabled, thus the target can not be shared with the rest of the lance.

I guess it depends on what is meant by the word "target" in this context. If by target, you mean pressing the 'R' key and getting a sensor lock, that is what appears to be a broken mechanic in this game as it should not exist with LRMs.

See my posts -->Here<-- and -->Here<-- for how I built that idea.

You are correct though - going through the maze of the rule book could be quite tedious at times and it is certainly subject to interpretation as some things are not as clearly written as others...