97 replies to this topic

[Butane9000]

Okay,

First and foremost ECM in small amounts (maximum of 2 mechs per team in a match having it equipped) is not broken. In fact it works, it makes for more tactical play. The inherent problem though is the sheer number of ECM mechs in the game. I honestly wasn't having much of a problem against ECM mechs till a few days ago. I started dropping solo and began encountering more and more ECM mechs in each game. The most common of which are clearly the Raven 3L and Atlas D-DC.

Now let's look back to before patch. What were considered the "best" mechs? It's hard to say since people were using quite a few models. Now we clearly know which are the best mechs in the game.

Raven RVN-3L
Atlas AS7-D-DC
Stalker (any variant)
Commando COM-2D
Cicada CDA-3M

Now this leads us to another issue. As of right now the most common 2 mechs to see in a game, and in almost every game are the Raven 3L and Atlas D-DC. This leads to games either being light heavy or assault heavy. This has also lead the game to become higher chassis flooded. Most games I see now either have 3-6 lights on a team with the rest being assaults. Or a mix of Assault and Heavy mechs. Sometimes in games I see 1 or 2 mediums in a match.

The fact is ECM in it's current form is just too easily exploited. The best things I can come up with for countering this trend are:

Allow for 1 ECM on counter to counter all opposing ECM in an area. Counter on an ECM should not counter another ECM currently on Counter.

Massively increase the cost of ECM to 4,000,000 C-bills minimum. (x10 increase)

Remove the pulse effect which makes LRMs and TAG useless inside of 180M. I will be trying to lock on and shoot a target farther then 180M but their friendly ECM mech will negate my weapons.

Limit the amount of ECM equipped mechs allowed into one game. (extreme measure)

Create a pilot experience module that reduces the effectiveness of enemy ECM by 50-75%.

Needless to say my friends who play this game are getting frustrated. They feel the game is dying and it's hard to come up with a counter argument. I don't like getting completely rolled by a flock of Raven 3L's which can negate my sensors only to have them break off when their assaults show up unharmed compared to the lot of us.

As it stands now ECM has made several weapons useless. These are LRMs, SSRMS and NARC. This limits the build diversity and leads to everyone using cookie cutter builds.

Lastly I do want this game to succeed but as it stands now it's going to drive more and more people away. Several of my friends tried this game when you instituted the trial mech requirement with the old economy and have quit. None of them will come back. Now with rampant ECM abuse I don't want them to.

So please PGI. Please make sure to take appropriate measures this upcoming Tuesday to fix ECM abuse and to make non-ECM mechs a whole lot more relevant then they are right now.

Note: This is my POV I have taken several weeks to think up and experience before posting. I understand there are lots of ECM threads. This one is strictly my view of the problems at hand.

[nostra]

This is a very, very well-thought-out post, much better than the usual grumpy naysaying that a lot of forum members on here put up screaming about how OP ECM is or whatnot.

I happen to agree with you for the most part, there seems to be an overabundance of ECM currently simply because it is the high-powered flavor of the month.

What i like most here is the suggestion of increasing the ECM's price. ECM, particularly on the 3L Raven, represents extremely advanced, only-recently-rediscovered technology ( I believe it was LosTech until the discovery of the Helm Memory Core and the reintroduction of Star League-Era technology just prior to the timeline we're at in this game). Thus, the price for such rare and undoubtedly advantageous tech would merit a much higher C-bill count than it does currently. Somewhere in the millions of C-Bills as you suggested seems much more fitting.

That being said, hopefully ECM will be somewhat reduced in effectiveness once C3 and C3i Slave systems are introduced for 'mechs, which should, if memory serves, allow members of a C3-integrated lance to share targeting data, hopefully combatting ECM's bubble-o-nuissance.

[steelblueskies]

ecm was a capellan/liao invention insofar as the systems in use at this point. cashed in on with economics to the draconis combine. not rediscovered tech, new-old tech. technically, and judging by hero raven lore, it should be unavailable outside those sectors save a single hero mech raven chassis picked up by the fedsun forces.

c3 is another draconis only system developed midway through 3050(this year). c3i was comstar only and won't be around for a while either.

besides c3 systems only improved direct fire accuracy functionally, with the exception in that the master unit duplicated tag functionality. given they have no provisions for direct fire accuracy losses commensurate with target lock loss/interference, it's basically useless gear, especially considering its massive weight and crit cost and the technical limitation a 1 master for every 3 slave units arrangement for c3 (or the 6 unit mesh cap for c3i) and the need to set up groupings before drops.

even were it automatically grouped it'd still be huge crit/weight cost and depend on multiple units fielding the equipment, which random drops render a huge risk.

there is also the ruleset functions with regards to standard comms gear, counted as 1 ton and baked in as part of your sensor critslot usage in the head/cockpit region having ecm/eccm functionality at reduced effect as per double blind rules.

in any event, this belonged in ecm feedback. conveniently individuals have continued to keep said feedback thread alive through the last few patches.

Edited by steelblueskies, 09 January 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[ltwally]

Butane9000, on 09 January 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Okay,

First and foremost ECM in small amounts (maximum of 2 mechs per team in a match having it equipped) is not broken. In fact it works, it makes for more tactical play. The inherent problem though is the sheer number of ECM mechs in the game. I honestly wasn't having much of a problem against ECM mechs till a few days ago. I started dropping solo and began encountering more and more ECM mechs in each game. The most common of which are clearly the Raven 3L and Atlas D-DC.

ECM weighs 1.5 tonnes and uses 2 slots; the same weight and space as an AMS unit + 1 tonne of ammunition, or a Beagle Active Probe, and less than half the weight of Narc + ammo. For that, ECM:
*Completely counters enemy Artemis against all friendlies within 180m
*Completely counters enemy Beagle against all friendles within 180m
*Completely counters enemy Narc against all friendlies within 180m
*Foils basic sensors, so that they do not reveal any units within 180m, which also...
*Completely wipes out all missile locks, both LRM & S-SRM

Yes, ECM is broken. It's broken with only 1 unit, or with a dozen. It's just plain broken. It's flat-out pure awesome, and no other piece of equipment comes close to its usefulness, tonne-for-tonne and/or slot-for-slot.

Just because it's less obviously broken when encountered in small quantities does not negate the fact that it's broken. If Gauss were upgraded to do 100 points of damage, but you only encountered one in a match, it might not be so horrible... but it'd still be horribly broken.

Nothing that weighs 1.5 tonnes should so radically reshape the game. I'm sorry; I hate to be rude about it. But, the very concept that this is "ok" is simply absurd.

Quote

Now let's look back to before patch. What were considered the "best" mechs? It's hard to say since people were using quite a few models. Now we clearly know which are the best mechs in the game.

Raven RVN-3L
Atlas AS7-D-DC
Stalker (any variant)
Commando COM-2D
Cicada CDA-3M

They aren't the best mechs. Your list is comprised of the Stalker, which is currently riding the new-mech tide, and the ECM mechs. Though the other variants might be the best of their breeds, they are not so incredible sans-ECM. It's only when they rock the ECM that they become super-powered.

Quote

....
The fact is ECM in it's current form is just too easily exploited. The best things I can come up with for countering this trend are:

Allow for 1 ECM on counter to counter all opposing ECM in an area. Counter on an ECM should not counter another ECM currently on Counter.

That was, more or less, how it originally functioned. After one week, they (PGI) had changed that.

Am I too understand that your counter for ECM is.... more ECM? This is your idea of balance?

Nothing that weighs only 1.5 tonnes should require any special equipment or tactic to counter it. Consider: do you take special precautions to counter 3 Small Lasers? Or a Machine Gun?

Why do you feel that, for the same weight, ECM should be different? Is that not the very definition of over-powered?

Quote

Massively increase the cost of ECM to 4,000,000 C-bills minimum. (x10 increase)

That's actually still pretty cheap when you consider what it does -- it's a missile shield like no other. TAG? Be serious. That requires real coordination and planning, and even then is something to pull off. For 4M C-Bills, it's still totally worth it.

Quote

Remove the pulse effect which makes LRMs and TAG useless inside of 180M. I will be trying to lock on and shoot a target farther then 180M but their friendly ECM mech will negate my weapons.

Do you understand that the minimum range on LRM is 180m ??

Quote

Limit the amount of ECM equipped mechs allowed into one game. (extreme measure)

See my first comment, above.

Quote

Create a pilot experience module that reduces the effectiveness of enemy ECM by 50-75%.

I'm all for more Pilot Modules. They're cool and add flavour. That said, a Pilot Module isn't the answer to fixing ECM. The answer to fixing ECM is to fix ECM.

Quote

Needless to say my friends who play this game are getting frustrated. They feel the game is dying and it's hard to come up with a counter argument. I don't like getting completely rolled by a flock of Raven 3L's which can negate my sensors only to have them break off when their assaults show up unharmed compared to the lot of us.

As it stands now ECM has made several weapons useless. These are LRMs, SSRMS and NARC. This limits the build diversity and leads to everyone using cookie cutter builds.

Lastly I do want this game to succeed but as it stands now it's going to drive more and more people away. Several of my friends tried this game when you instituted the trial mech requirement with the old economy and have quit. None of them will come back. Now with rampant ECM abuse I don't want them to.

So please PGI. Please make sure to take appropriate measures this upcoming Tuesday to fix ECM abuse and to make non-ECM mechs a whole lot more relevant then they are right now.

Note: This is my POV I have taken several weeks to think up and experience before posting. I understand there are lots of ECM threads. This one is strictly my view of the problems at hand.

This is actually pretty simple. Fix all of Information Warfare in one sweep, as follows:

• Upgrade Beagle to be more effective. (Half of what it does for TT simply does not translate into MW:O). It should generate noticeable improvements on sensor range, and allow sensors to "see around corners". This would turn it into a scout tool for MW:O like it is in TT. Limit Beagle to scout mechs (light mechs + Cicada), as it is a scout tool and should be constrained to scout mechs.
  
• Upgrade NARC to be more effective. It needs to last substantially longer. (In TT, it lasts for the duration of the battle, though this might be over-powered in MW:O.) Also, it needs to broadcast so that friendlies can use it for targeting data, even if no friendlies have Line-of-Sight.
  
• ECM should counter Artemis, Beagle and Narc. It should have no effect on other sensors. Open ECM up to all mechs.

Implement those 3 things. Test it for a month or so. Adjust as necessary. I'd bet good money that few adjustments would need to be made; once Beagle and Narc are actually worth using, then having ECM only counter them makes it worthwhile.

[DaangeroussDann]

I'm a die hard Mech warrior from mech 2 all the way to mercs, and mwl, battle tech, mwa,, name it. So glad to see someone is trying to bring the best first person shooter/ simulator back, thank you, good memories.
Now to business. Huge holes developing with this patch from what I see, and people ARE frustrated, because while bringing a dynamic new demention into the game (ecm), and limiting the chasis able to mount it, I see it becoming less exciting and more predictable, with easy wins with no tactic. Heres the problem:

1) ECM makes a lance invisable: = bung rush after bung rush for easy win
a) reduce ecm range of cover to lancemates.
Make BAP capable of detecting ecm cover and in 360 degrees.
even with BAP (BAP is completely useless ingame now) BAP should be the logical recourse, and countermeasure, for anyone with lrm's, and should detect ecm disruption at about maximum short range (250), making ecm still good for closing in , but not GOD MODE enabling bung rush blitz, whitch gets old fast. Ravens won't be so quick to rush in if they are seen by bap mechs at 250 meters. Don't talk of nootering a good mech (raven), bring the problem into balance (ecm). Its about offering MORE options, not less IMO.
AS is, you have just made the game all brawler. if a team moves correctly, It is extremely easy to get into brawl range on any single map we have with ecm, and thats whats happening. I dont see ecm as offering new tactics, I see a new toy that is quickly making the game a stealth blitz, whoever has more ravens and atlas wins. Weeee,, fun ;/. Its a game killer, not expander.

2) ECCM should negate any and all ememy ecm within its range. This is a no brainer, I can't believe someone even tried to put a 1 for 1 number on it, probably in the name of profit maybe? Any eccm has a given range that effect any and all enemy ecm in its range. This will fix the nasty earge to have 8 ecm mechs in a single drop. My thought is that in switching to eccm, and giving up their stealth for their team, they should at least have a chance for doing some good. So a good mech warrior who is not guilded, runing solo CAN make a difference for his pug team, vs. all the premade elitests who are loving ecm because its so easy to step on pugs now, moreso than before. I don't think that is good for the games future. Everyone knows what mechs they have to take now, just to be sure of a 100% victory. This 1 eccm for 1 eccm is a game killer. Limiting peoples choices of mechs. Not good.

3) Make one ECM variant for every chasis: After bringing BAP back into the ECM game, maybe making an ecm variant for every chasis is a good thing. I'm sick of seing Ravens and Atlas's personally. Its just an electronic, maybe increase the weight, but I don't see how one decides that only 4 mechs are capable of mounting it, doesn't in any way seem logical. Increasing its weight would limit the lights willing to field it and get rid of the stupidity that is the raven bung rush.

[Cest7]

Constructive

[Xelchon]

Butane9000, on 09 January 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Now let's look back to before patch. What were considered the "best" mechs? It's hard to say since people were using quite a few models. Now we clearly know which are the best mechs in the game.

Raven RVN-3L
Atlas AS7-D-DC
Stalker (any variant)
Commando COM-2D
Cicada CDA-3M

The thoughts you came up with are very accurate and constructive, so i liked it, but only this part is DEAD WRONG.

There is no 'best mech' in this game, and I mean it. This makes your post look subjective. When I play and face off one of those mechs on this list one-on-one, I don't say for example; "Oh, an Atlas D-DC, that mech is better than mine, I should disengage."
I duel with them, and circumstance allows, god knows I beat them just as hard as it is to beat others.
I roll a Centurion. I roll Cat K-2, I roll CICADA-2D, I roll AWS 9M, I roll DRG, I have zillions of c-bills stashed and 11 mechs in my bay, but I don't roll those mechs, because they are not good for me, and I never regret doing so. When I lose to them, I know I am the one failing, not ECM.
Thanks for your post again though, I think it deserves recognition.

Edited by Xelchon, 10 January 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[StUffz]

Butane9000, on 09 January 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Okay,

First and foremost ECM in small amounts (maximum of 2 mechs per team in a match having it equipped) is not broken. In fact it works, it makes for more tactical play. The inherent problem though is the sheer number of ECM mechs in the game. I honestly wasn't having much of a problem against ECM mechs till a few days ago. I started dropping solo and began encountering more and more ECM mechs in each game. The most common of which are clearly the Raven 3L and Atlas D-DC.

Now let's look back to before patch. What were considered the "best" mechs? It's hard to say since people were using quite a few models. Now we clearly know which are the best mechs in the game.

Raven RVN-3L
Atlas AS7-D-DC
Stalker (any variant)
Commando COM-2D
Cicada CDA-3M

I agree with the idea to delimit the the ECM slots to 2 and for Liao 3 (as a faction goodie). I posted the same idea in the ecm feedback thread but it seemed not to be very welcomed whereas most were worried that they will have longer waiting queue if ECM is selected.

Going to the Mechs you posted.

Raven RVN-3L
Atlas AS7-D-DC <- should be removed or swapped to the 7-K Version, since it's the weakest version from Weapon Slots view. And the first Atlas with an ECM was the Lyran Commonwealth K2 post Jihad Version
Stalker (any variant) <- One version and maybe limited to FWL. Since the Atlas is already an assault class with ECM option, I would rather leave it completely away
Commando COM-2D
Cicada CDA-3M

Thats my opinion on how the ECM should set on the mechs.

Edited by StUffz, 10 January 2013 - 02:06 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Butane9000, on 09 January 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

First and foremost ECM in small amounts (maximum of 2 mechs per team in a match having it equipped) is not broken. In fact it works, it makes for more tactical play. The inherent problem though is the sheer number of ECM mechs in the game. I honestly wasn't having much of a problem against ECM mechs till a few days ago. I started dropping solo and began encountering more and more ECM mechs in each game. The most common of which are clearly the Raven 3L and Atlas D-DC.

Don't dance around the issue: ECM is unbalanced! That's why, as you say: the Raven RVN-3L and Atlas AS7-D-DC, are now the 2 most common mechs. Before ECM you heard nothing of them.

Quote

Allow for 1 ECM on counter to counter all opposing ECM in an area. Counter on an ECM should not counter another ECM currently on Counter.

Due to a bug, this is how it originally operated. If you remember, it didn't make much of a difference. Simply the team brought more ECM and spread them out a bit.

Quote

Massively increase the cost of ECM to 4,000,000 C-bills minimum. (x10 increase)

This merely will delay the problem, not fix it. Cost should never be used as a balancing tool. The fact is overtime anyone would be able to save for it.

Quote

Remove the pulse effect which makes LRMs and TAG useless inside of 180M. I will be trying to lock on and shoot a target farther then 180M but their friendly ECM mech will negate my weapons.

I guess you are referring to the stealth bubble. I agree this is a big issue. It denies focus fire for non-TS teams, thus limiting team work within pugs. It allows no guided weapons, without the use of TAG. The stealth bubble should be removed.

Quote

Limit the amount of ECM equipped mechs allowed into one game. (extreme measure)

If you must limit something, then it is a problem. Instead let's just fix it.

Quote

Create a pilot experience module that reduces the effectiveness of enemy ECM by 50-75%.

This combined with the increased price you proposed, will only make this game more frustrating for new players. They will first grind for ECM. Once they finally unlock ECM, it will appear useless against veteran players due to the new module.

Quote

As it stands now ECM has made several weapons useless. These are LRMs, SSRMS and NARC. This limits the build diversity and leads to everyone using cookie cutter builds.

I completely agree. ECM limits diversity. Why would I bring any LRM? Why would I bring TAG? Instead I'm going to stock up on Mlasers, SRM6 and ballistics, like every other build.


I believe the reason why ECM is such a touchy subject because it has patched out a previous issue: guided missiles. Basically ECM function as a bandaid. However all ECM does is deny the side with less ECM. However missiles will still be an issue. For instance what happens once PGI create a powerful ECM counter? LRM will once again cloud the sky. No the real problem are the missiles. Fix the missiles instead of throwing a band-aid on it. They can do that by:

• increasing lock-on time
  
• removing shared target lock-ons
  
• increase missile spread
  
• increase AMS usefulness
  
• add stealth technology such as stealth armor or null signature
  
• when firing LRM you become auto spotted (making you vulnerable to return fire)

As for ECM, it is not supposed to be a mandatory piece of technology on the battlefield. It should not have stealth properties, this should be removed. ECM is supposed to simply counter electronics such as BAP, Artemis, NARC and C3 within its 180m bubble only. It's not some stellar game changing technology MWO has made it out to be. That's why it is so light and take up very few slots, like BAP. On its own it has no stealth properties; only when combined with stealth armor or null signature.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 January 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Agreed, ECM isn't broken because it works exactly how devs wanted it to. It is, on the other hand, breaking other things. But that is being an asshat and I don't want to be one, since OP expressed his ideas in rather thoughtful and polite way.
And I must say I agree with OP's point. ECM by itself is a pain in the back, but it should be. That is why I bought my 3L after all! Not to be strong, but to be as annoying as possible (born tackler from EvE speaking here btw). What is imbalanced is lack of other measures to counter ECM, and since right now the only way to counter ECM is another ECM, one can't be surprised that we see many ECM mechs in game. BAP could do this. Modules for GXP could do this (and SHOULD do this, those are the "endgame" upgrades after all). Some weapons could do this (how about PPC taking away ECM effect for 10 seconds if the original ECM mech is hit?). And of course, limiting ECM may also be a valid way of fixing, but I remember WoT arty thing too well - and since it didn't get limited yet and instead game mechanics were changed to achieve natural balance, I suppose PGI will take the same route to handle current ECM swarm in the field.
But we finally need some way of dealing with ECM. TAG and NARC coutnering ECM may be a wet dream of certain people, but it will never happen, basically because it is fundamentally wrong to take one extra obligatory weapon system to counter something that should be countered in more appropriate manner.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 10 January 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[twibs]

Raising the price of the ECM does nothing by raise more whine. People will still use, they just have to pay more for it to be competetive.

And as much I agree with you, I'm starting to lose faith in the devs over this and just be 'meh, couple more chassis and I've seen this game'.

Edited by twibs, 10 January 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[dread2005]

It is hard to against ECM wehn your Team has no ECM, but iff its on Both sides its Okay for me.

What would be much better is a Teambalancing, with for Example Tonnage equal!

Like Team 1 has: 2x Atlas 1x Catapult 2x Commando 2x Hunchback and 1x Cacida than there would be a Tonnage of = 455 Tonnage

Team 2 has: 2x Stalker 2x Catapharache 2XRaven 1x Commando and 1xHunchback than there would be a Tonnage of = 455

It would be much harder to Finde Games to Fit togather, but it would be a great balancing Tool i think

sorry for my bad english....

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Quick trivia question "what do you call a flock of ravens?"

Answer: a murder. How appropriate.

Actually an "unkindness of ravens" seems to be the go. Murder, unkindness...all the same really when u get multiple 3Ls

Edited by Brown Hornet, 10 January 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[MrMasakari]

Its nice to see a well thought out post on ECM instead of the OMG ITS OP AND BROKEN post lol.

Now this is just my opinion here but I personally think the problem is as Mordin said, there is a lack of counters for the ECM, which needs to be introduced. The only real counter atm is to blow them up, which is not always an easy task when they are protected by lag shields/lag bubbles w/e you want to call it.

Another thing to note is that the ECM suite is stronger on certain maps due to the size of them, which I'm perfectly fine with. But perhaps a bit too big on certain maps (i.e. river city) On river city I believe it covers like 1/10 of the map or something. (Correct me if i'm wrong, it just seems that way.) So that's something else to consider aswell for anyone thinking range nerfs.

Edited by Artaire, 10 January 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Butane9000]

ltwally, on 09 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

ECM weighs 1.5 tonnes and uses 2 slots; the same weight and space as an AMS unit + 1 tonne of ammunition, or a Beagle Active Probe, and less than half the weight of Narc + ammo. For that, ECM:
*Completely counters enemy Artemis against all friendlies within 180m
*Completely counters enemy Beagle against all friendles within 180m
*Completely counters enemy Narc against all friendlies within 180m
*Foils basic sensors, so that they do not reveal any units within 180m, which also...
*Completely wipes out all missile locks, both LRM & S-SRM

Yes, ECM is broken. It's broken with only 1 unit, or with a dozen. It's just plain broken. It's flat-out pure awesome, and no other piece of equipment comes close to its usefulness, tonne-for-tonne and/or slot-for-slot.

Just because it's less obviously broken when encountered in small quantities does not negate the fact that it's broken. If Gauss were upgraded to do 100 points of damage, but you only encountered one in a match, it might not be so horrible... but it'd still be horribly broken.

Nothing that weighs 1.5 tonnes should so radically reshape the game. I'm sorry; I hate to be rude about it. But, the very concept that this is "ok" is simply absurd.

Have you ever really encountered only 1 or 2 mechs in a game that use ECM? It isn't "broken" in any way. If you approach the situation tactically you can usually take said units out fairly quickly. I've done so in pug games. I've done it in pre-mades. ECM gets stupid when 5+ people have it on one team. ECM has been part of the Battletech lore for awhile, and PGI did something they didn't have to.

ECM Counter mode doesn't exist. In the tabletop there isn't any way to "counter" ECM with ECM. This is why ECM isn't broken when in small quantities on both teams. One unit can counter the other.

ltwally, on 09 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

They aren't the best mechs. Your list is comprised of the Stalker, which is currently riding the new-mech tide, and the ECM mechs. Though the other variants might be the best of their breeds, they are not so incredible sans-ECM. It's only when they rock the ECM that they become super-powered.

-----------------------------

That was, more or less, how it originally functioned. After one week, they (PGI) had changed that.

Am I too understand that your counter for ECM is.... more ECM? This is your idea of balance?

Nothing that weighs only 1.5 tonnes should require any special equipment or tactic to counter it. Consider: do you take special precautions to counter 3 Small Lasers? Or a Machine Gun?

Why do you feel that, for the same weight, ECM should be different? Is that not the very definition of over-powered?

The Stalker is new and is riding the new wave. Undoubtedly which is why it's common. Secondly, the Atlas D-DC was popular before AMS due to the hardpoints on it. Was it the best Atlas? No, probably not but it was still popular. The Raven 3L wasn't in the game for very long before ECM was implemented so it's hard to say but looking at the unit it doesn't strike me as "better" then the other Ravens. But clearly post ECM we can see through simple playing which mechs are the most common and thus "better" by vote. Not necessarily by variant/hardpoint/combat capability.

------------

No, my idea of balance is to go to how it was before. At least before people wouldn't all have ECM on a team because 1 ECM equipped mech could counter and stop all of theirs. Meaning if one team was only using 1, then they could counter a team using 5. Also this isn't "special equipment" it's the exact same equipment.

Your argument about countering special equipment would have been better had to used actual equipment instead of weapons like TAG, NARC or Artemis.

ltwally, on 09 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

That's actually still pretty cheap when you consider what it does -- it's a missile shield like no other. TAG? Be serious. That requires real coordination and planning, and even then is something to pull off. For 4M C-Bills, it's still totally worth it.

That was merely one suggestion to balance ECM. Also your assuming that TAG will always be on another person you can't control. However with TAGs new distance of 750m I equip that on my LRM Awesome to great success.

ltwally, on 09 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Do you understand that the minimum range on LRM is 180m ??

--------------------

I'm all for more Pilot Modules. They're cool and add flavour. That said, a Pilot Module isn't the answer to fixing ECM. The answer to fixing ECM is to fix ECM.

--------------------

This is actually pretty simple. Fix all of Information Warfare in one sweep, as follows:

• Upgrade Beagle to be more effective. (Half of what it does for TT simply does not translate into MW:O). It should generate noticeable improvements on sensor range, and allow sensors to "see around corners". This would turn it into a scout tool for MW:O like it is in TT. Limit Beagle to scout mechs (light mechs + Cicada), as it is a scout tool and should be constrained to scout mechs.
  
• Upgrade NARC to be more effective. It needs to last substantially longer. (In TT, it lasts for the duration of the battle, though this might be over-powered in MW:O.) Also, it needs to broadcast so that friendlies can use it for targeting data, even if no friendlies have Line-of-Sight.
  
• ECM should counter Artemis, Beagle and Narc. It should have no effect on other sensors. Open ECM up to all mechs.

Implement those 3 things. Test it for a month or so. Adjust as necessary. I'd bet good money that few adjustments would need to be made; once Beagle and Narc are actually worth using, then having ECM only counter them makes it worthwhile.

I do understand the minimum range is 180m. If you read what I wrote I said I was trying to shoot his teammate who was farther then 180m. However by virtue of just being around me and having ECM he rendered my LRMs useless. I wasn't trying to shoot him as that would be a waste of ammunition.

------------------

Again this was merely one suggestion to fix ECM.

------------------

I agree with your suggestions 1 and 2 to fix the ECM. But not suggestion 3. It's clear to me they're going off the lore and are constrained by it. However one possible fix is something I read from Sarna (Note: I know Sarna is not always 100% accurate):

"Before the Helm Memory Core was decoded, the Capellan Confederation tried to re-create the Star League era ECM suites. The resulting electronics package was known only as ECM Equipment when it appeared on the Raven in 3025.^[1] Given the technology level of the Succession Wars era, it isn't surprising that this equipment was heavier and bulkier than the systems that inspired it. Interestingly, it could operate in either an offensive or defensive capability: It could seek targets like a Beagle Active Probe, or hide the unit mounting it like a Guardian. As it weighed as much as a standard PPC, took up as much room as an Autocannon/5, and had only half the range of the Guardian, production halted when the Confederation began production of their own Guardian systems in 3045.^[2]"

It looks like the one we are using is this version. In which case it should:

Weigh 7 tons (530% increase)
Fill 4 critial slots (100% increase)

However they seem to have combined the above system with the regular Guardian ECM.

So if they made it to lore by making it weight 7 tons and take up 4 critical slots while also costing more. I believe that wouldn't be a bad way to balance it.

StalaggtIKE, on 10 January 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

I guess you are referring to the stealth bubble. I agree this is a big issue. It denies focus fire for non-TS teams, thus limiting team work within pugs. It allows no guided weapons, without the use of TAG. The stealth bubble should be removed.

-------------------

I believe the reason why ECM is such a touchy subject because it has patched out a previous issue: guided missiles. Basically ECM function as a bandaid. However all ECM does is deny the side with less ECM. However missiles will still be an issue. For instance what happens once PGI create a powerful ECM counter? LRM will once again cloud the sky. No the real problem are the missiles. Fix the missiles instead of throwing a band-aid on it. They can do that by:

• increasing lock-on time
  
• removing shared target lock-ons
  
• increase missile spread
  
• increase AMS usefulness
  
• add stealth technology such as stealth armor or null signature.

-----------------------

As for ECM, it is not supposed to be a mandatory piece of technology on the battlefield. It should not have stealth properties, this should be removed. ECM is supposed to simply counter electronics such as BAP, Artemis, NARC and C3 within its 180m bubble only. It's not some stellar game changing technology MWO has made it out to be. That's why it is so light and take up very few slots, like BAP. On its own it has no stealth properties; only when combined with stealth armor or null signature.

Yes, but the true issue it seems is that if an ECM mech currently gets close enough to me even my TAG is rendered useless. That is what is getting to me.

--------------------------------

I disagree about the LRMs/SSRMs. Both of those were patched pre-ECM to easily acceptable levels. ECM "abuse" has made all guided weapons and assistance equipment almost useless.

------------------------------

Reading up on it supposedly the ECM they chose to implement could indeed hide units. However the pulse stealth shield under 180m does not exist. It also did not effect lock ons from what I have read.

Xelchon, on 10 January 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

The thoughts you came up with are very accurate and constructive, so i liked it, but only this part is DEAD WRONG.

There is no 'best mech' in this game, and I mean it. This makes your post look subjective. When I play and face off one of those mechs on this list one-on-one, I don't say for example; "Oh, an Atlas D-DC, that mech is better than mine, I should disengage."
I duel with them, and circumstance allows, god knows I beat them just as hard as it is to beat others.
I roll a Centurion. I roll Cat K-2, I roll CICADA-2D, I roll AWS 9M, I roll DRG, I have zillions of c-bills stashed and 11 mechs in my bay, but I don't roll those mechs, because they are not good for me, and I never regret doing so. When I lose to them, I know I am the one failing, not ECM.
Thanks for your post again though, I think it deserves recognition.

When I meant "best mech" I meant by virtue of how much they are used in-game. Obviously you can still fight them. But people tend to gravitate to the easiest and what are commonly refered to as the best units on the battlefield. How long ago was it Steak Cats? Gauss Cats? 7ML Awesomes? Hunchback 4P's? There have always been units that are "better" then others by virtue of how many people use them.

This does not make then however, better for combat. In fact, a good player can know how to neuter said units easily. I too use a Centurion. Specifically a CN9-A with an AC5, 3 SSRM2's and 2 ML. It uses Ferro Fibrous armor and wrecks house.

[Big Giant Head]

ltwally, on 09 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Nothing that weighs 1.5 tonnes should so radically reshape the game. I'm sorry; I hate to be rude about it. But, the very concept that this is "ok" is simply absurd.

Negative.
You cant put 2 or more ECMs , ECM doesn't do any dmg so it cant be compared to medium pulse laser or whatever.
My opinion is to make ECM usable to most variant and chassis and to set ECM to the way it is supposed to work (MW4 mercs or whatever).
Because limiting mech that can use ECM is very unwise, lazy, stupid, just-to-trow-it solution. Doesnt solve anything, yet makes other mechs fade - its very brutal act.

What makes chassis different one from another?
>Look, hitbox, tonnage, hardpoint placement ( tonnage and engine size decides of torso turning and stuff)

What makes variant differently from their other versions?
>hardpoint placement and presented loadout

It should stay like this forever. Amen.

[StalaggtIKE]

Artaire, on 10 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Another thing to note is that the ECM suite is stronger on certain maps due to the size of them, which I'm perfectly fine with. But perhaps a bit too big on certain maps (i.e. river city) On river city I believe it covers like 1/10 of the map or something. (Correct me if i'm wrong, it just seems that way.) So that's something else to consider aswell for anyone thinking range nerfs.

Seems to be some misinformation on ECM, I'll create a list.

List of things ECM does in MWO:

• provides stealth of allies within 180m umbrella up to 200m
  
  • stealth blocks spotting (press 'r') up until 200m
    
  • must be out of 180m (this leaves only 20m gap for spotting)
    
  • within 180m you can select a target, however it is not shared with allies
• within 180m disrupt bubble does the following to enemies:
  
  • blocks guidance missiles (SSRM)
    
  • hide IFF markers
    
  • hide IFF off of minimap
    
  • removes shared spotting and paperdoll intel
    
  • counters Artemis, BAP and NARC
    
  • does not block TAG, however none of your allies will see your designated target.

[StalaggtIKE]

Butane9000, on 10 January 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Have you ever really encountered only 1 or 2 mechs in a game that use ECM? It isn't "broken" in any way. If you approach the situation tactically you can usually take said units out fairly quickly.

As long as drops are random, this can not be relied upon. You must go into every game with the notion that the whole enemy team may have ECM. I say this because there are no negatives or penalties to carrying ECM, except for the fact it gets boring playing the same mechs every game. If ECM must be limited in order to allow a balanced playing field, then something is wrong with it.

Quote

"Before the Helm Memory Core was decoded, the Capellan Confederation tried to re-create the Star League era ECM suites. The resulting electronics package was known only as ECM Equipment when it appeared on the Raven in 3025.^[1] Given the technology level of the Succession Wars era, it isn't surprising that this equipment was heavier and bulkier than the systems that inspired it. Interestingly, it could operate in either an offensive or defensive capability: It could seek targets like a Beagle Active Probe, or hide the unit mounting it like a Guardian. As it weighed as much as a standard PPC, took up as much room as an Autocannon/5, and had only half the range of the Guardian, production halted when the Confederation began production of their own Guardian systems in 3045.^[2]"

It looks like the one we are using is this version. In which case it should:

Weigh 7 tons (530% increase)
Fill 4 critial slots (100% increase)

However they seem to have combined the above system with the regular Guardian ECM.

So if they made it to lore by making it weight 7 tons and take up 4 critical slots while also costing more. I believe that wouldn't be a bad way to balance it.

This would balance ECM imo. Which means it would weigh more, take up more slots and hide only the user. However we have a mishmash of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, SL ECM equipment, null signature and stealth armor. PGI needs to decide on only on these or if they decide stick to this mishmash they have created, add the proper cons:

• more critical space
  
• more tonnage
  
• heat generation while active

Quote

I disagree about the LRMs/SSRMs. Both of those were patched pre-ECM to easily acceptable levels. ECM "abuse" has made all guided weapons and assistance equipment almost useless.

I also felt they were fine. However I find that most ECM supporters like ECM for its ability to block LRM/SSRM, so "fixing" LRM/SSRM is a compromise on my part. Currently ECM has exasperated the problem; one team has ECM and able to use LRM/SSRM, while the other team has no ECM and is being bombarded without a way to return indirect fire.

On a side note, I find it amusing that this ECM thread is getting such positive feedback. It is not stating anything that has not been said before. I guess the difference is in the title; just shows how often a book is judged by its cover.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 10 January 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Felix]

Just tried another couple of games after this patch, yeah ECM is still overpowered

[Jock Blaine]

Ok, In general I dislike the overpowered discussions. But I think this can be settled very easily.
Currently, ECM is restricted to just a few mechs (there is your first hint). If it wasn't, how many mechs would have ECM? I know all my mechs would carry it. I think most mechs would carry it. Equipment that everyone wants/needs to use=>overpowered.
It seems fairly simple to me, if you try to balance a game by reducing accessibility of a certain type of equipment or weapon to a very limited set of mechs, then that bit of equipment is overpowered. Otherwise you wouldn't have to limit its use.