97 replies to this topic

[Sesambrot]

StalaggtIKE, on 13 January 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

You state that ECM seems about right, and you feel that BAP should be its counter. Well shouldn't BAP give all allies within the area a detection bonus?

That's not what I said.
I actually like the way ECM counters ECM, BAP was just an example, you could also give artemis-missiles the ability to lock on to ECM-protected mechs.
The real issue is the fact that ECM is the only way to deal with ECM, I think that if people had ways to mitigate or circumvent the effects of ECM to some degree by using a different piece of equippment available on more/all chassis it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
ECM has to stay special because it's unique to certain chassis, and that's fine. I'm also fine with ECM being the only way to completely cancel it out, but it shouldn't be the only way to do anything about it.

Edited by Sesambrot, 14 January 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[Death Mallet]

I think with the following two fixes, ECM/BAP could be just fine and an interesting part of the game.

Change 1:
ECM does not block regular sensors.

Regular sensors are largely line-of-sight driven anyway, so are probably a camera tech optical pattern recognition that wouldn't be vulnerable to ECM anyway. In any case, this fixes the most god awful part of ECM which is allowing the enemy to close to point blank range before being targetable.

Change 2:
BAP burns through ECM

Basically if you have a BAP, you become immune to ECM. It's like using ECCM but it works for only your mech, nobody else. This gives the BAP a much needed buff, and a role in the online game.

Edited by Death Mallet, 14 January 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Sesambrot, on 14 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

That's not what I said.
I actually like the way ECM counters ECM, BAP was just an example, you could also give artemis-missiles the ability to lock on to ECM-protected mechs.
The real issue is the fact that ECM is the only way to deal with ECM, I think that if people had ways to mitigate or circumvent the effects of ECM to some degree by using a different piece of equippment available on more/all chassis it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
ECM has to stay special because it's unique to certain chassis, and that's fine. I'm also fine with ECM being the only way to completely cancel it out, but it shouldn't be the only way to do anything about it.

It is what you said, perhaps not what you meant. I blame it on semantics.

[Buffalo Six]

I fear we have this OP thing because its actually what they are going to stick on the clan mechs and if we had a canon unit the forums would melt down even worse than they are over this topic. The clan version will just extend things out further and weigh less........

yes this is how my mind works...........

[ShdwWraith]

Didn't read all the posts, so might have missed if this was suggested already...

Why does ECM affect TAG? TAG uses an infra-red laser to paint targets, which an ECM can't jam. Currently TAG only works outside of the 180m ECM range, which doesn't make sense, any missiles aren't using radar guidance etc, they are simply tracking a laser beam.

I propose that TAG be unaffected by ECM, so that any unit with a TAG can paint a target (even within 180m of ECM) for his team to lock onto. The team mate needs to have LoS to the target that is being painted to lock on (ie: needs to be able to see the laser dot).
This also makes it possible for mechs with SSRMs to target mechs (eg Ravens) that are close up but covered by ECM, as long as then can maintain a TAG lock.

Just my 2c

[Sesambrot]

StalaggtIKE, on 14 January 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

It is what you said, perhaps not what you meant. I blame it on semantics.

You only read the bits and pieces of my posts you want to read, don't you?
We basically seem to agree, so let's leave it at that...

[Jungle Rhino]

The TAG unit needs to relay realtime target information from the TAGing mech to the missles. ECM shuts down this transfer of information hence why it should not work.

This is where the devs have gone wrong - ECM is meant to prevent the sharing and transfer of information between mechs and their ancillary systems. Hence C3 slave units etc don't work, can't share targetting info, and artemis (basically TAG built into the missle system) doesn't work either. You should still be able to target enemy mechs using LoS visual targetting, then launch and fire regular LRMs (which I assume are heat/radar seeking missles that find their target by themselves)

Basically when your mech is affected by ECM your team and all targets they have locked or visible should disappear. Your target should remain, and none of your fancy gadgets should work.

[Norman Knight]

I always read that ECM ONLY cancels Artemis IV, C3 C3i, Narc and BAP and that this is written in the TT rules - That is simply wrong!

Referring to sarna.net, ECM is: "Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming."

That means it INCLUDES these systems, but it does NOT work for them EXCLUSIVELY. It jams normal weapon guidance, targeting and comunication systems, too!
It also makes the BAP almost useless, but you can at least DETECT the jamming with it.

---

In reality you can detect the direction of the ECM, too. Its just a broad-band signal that confuses your sensors but it is detectable. It its just a loud and strong radio noise emission and you know the direction it comes from.
Maybe PGI implements an "ECM over here"-Marker to the games HUD. This way you couldn't see how many and which mechs are there, but you know there is at least one.

Counter ECM via ECM is totally stupid IMHO ... counter-noise would probably work for the emitting mech itself if he finds the exact noise structure of the enemy ECM ... but for all surrounding mechs it would just result in even more noise and they wouldn't benefit.
Closer to reality would be a Counter-ECM-System integrated into the normal mechs sensors that tries to filter the noise out and allow a lock on after a 3 times longer time period (maybe only 2 times longer with BAP).

I can also think of an Home on Jam mode, where the sensors track the active ECM emitter but can not see the normal targets any more ... but this gets complicated then, needs more keys and goes to far away from Battletech then.

And another Idea: I could imagine the EMP effect of the PPC disabling ECM for 15 seconds.

These were just my 2 cents ...
bb

Edited by Norman Knight, 14 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Sid Vishus]

Ecm
From what i hav seen usualy say 5 people with ecm on each team totaly ruins the game any mech i hav used. .It was hard enugh trying to hit the small mech before ecm now its imposable resulting in tiny mech being able to take out most any mech
so we hav 4 FPS and everyone has an ECM ffs who is in charge of mwo or is this just thare way of generating more cash it makes no sens at all to me
you lot are messing up a game thats been around for years

[LynxFury]

Jungle Rhino, on 14 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

The TAG unit needs to relay realtime target information from the TAGing mech to the missles. ECM shuts down this transfer of information hence why it should not work.

That's completely inconsistent as well....if true, Tag even if fired from far outside the bubble, would never work against a mech inside the bubble because the missiles would instantly become unguided as soon as they entered that bubble. Neither TAG & ECM work with each other anything like battletech or real world equipment and are riddled with head shaking inconsistencies.

Edited by LynxFury, 15 January 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Sesambrot, on 14 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

You only read the bits and pieces of my posts you want to read, don't you?
We basically seem to agree, so let's leave it at that...

Your full statement was contradictory. That's why I gave you a hard time. I get what you were saying and actually agree with you. I just get tired of people trying to tiptoe around the ECM issue, as if the MWO gods will become angry and smite you. Yes, it's unbalanced. Does it mean it's unbeatable? No.

If we expect it to get addressed we need to state our concerns in a precise and clear manner. None of this "it's fine, just need to be tweaked a little" mess. Developers see the first part of that statement only,..."it's fine."

[Undergoose]

Very well thought out original post, but it's spoken from the standpoint of a diehard LRM/streak player;.

I think ECM is LESS broken than the fact that a pilot can run around spraying LRM missiles into the air with no discouragement or consequence.

ECM is the ONLY thing protecting those of us that actually drive mechs into battle (instead of hiding in the back spamming missiles into the backs of our team mates).

Granted, I've adjusted my play style (like most everyone else), and mainly hide out behind rocks, buildings and the carcasses of dead mechs in order to avoid the enemy missile boats.

I rarely run my ECM mechs. I have, however, also altered my play style to basically running fast mechs into the enemy missile noobs very early in the game. It's great fun to watch them squirm when you get inside 180 meters.

I can't wait until they re-add the rearming expense. As for ECM...it doesn't really bother me since all of my weapons are direct fire.

Pretty much anyone that complains about ECM needs to learn to shoot without a targeting computer telling them that the clicky part of the mech is ready.

[Orgasmo]

Changes I think is needed in ECM and information warfare in general:

- Counter mode should balance out 2 disrupting ECM. You need to have a third one to maintain disruption effects.

- ECM should not make LRM locks impossible outside of its bubble. It should increase the lock on time by 50% and that's it. You should not be able to stand in the open without fear of LRMs simply because you have ECM. Think of ECM as a module that will get you from cover the cover safer.

- ECM should not render TAG useless within 180m bubble like it does now. TAG is an optical laser device, and it's absurd that ECM would counter it.

- NARC should allow non line-of-sight firing of LRMs

- BAP should allow continued display of friendly units on your mini map if you have direct line of sight to them despite presence of ECM.

[Frost Lord]

what they need to do is limit the mechs that can use it not just let one of each chassy use it, everyone uses those chaseys almost exlusivly, the only exseption is when they need to level up but nearly every game I play everyone has ECM

I would personaly make it so all the ravens have the option since it is what the raven is built for then perhaps some cats then perhap look at varients that get vary little love this would need to wait till all wepons are working satisfatory. and not every chassy needs an ECM option.
as it is moste of the ECM mechs were probbly the moste commenly used before ECM.
I think they are nearly all the standed varient.

[Frost Lord]

Undergoose, on 15 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Very well thought out original post, but it's spoken from the standpoint of a diehard LRM/streak player;.

I think ECM is LESS broken than the fact that a pilot can run around spraying LRM missiles into the air with no discouragement or consequence.

ECM is the ONLY thing protecting those of us that actually drive mechs into battle (instead of hiding in the back spamming missiles into the backs of our team mates).

Granted, I've adjusted my play style (like most everyone else), and mainly hide out behind rocks, buildings and the carcasses of dead mechs in order to avoid the enemy missile boats.

I rarely run my ECM mechs. I have, however, also altered my play style to basically running fast mechs into the enemy missile noobs very early in the game. It's great fun to watch them squirm when you get inside 180 meters.

I can't wait until they re-add the rearming expense. As for ECM...it doesn't really bother me since all of my weapons are direct fire.

Pretty much anyone that complains about ECM needs to learn to shoot without a targeting computer telling them that the clicky part of the mech is ready.

lol you actuly sound more bies then the OP but sereasly its about balence, I think the ECM in its self is fine streeks and LRMS are now fine its the variaty and tacktics the ECM takes from the game, if everyone has them it can be hard to counter without getting up close with yore own ECM as more equipment drops this will lessen hopfully.

[Stormwolf]

Norman Knight, on 14 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

I always read that ECM ONLY cancels Artemis IV, C3 C3i, Narc and BAP and that this is written in the TT rules - That is simply wrong!

Referring to sarna.net, ECM is: "Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming."

That means it INCLUDES these systems, but it does NOT work for them EXCLUSIVELY. It jams normal weapon guidance, targeting and comunication systems, too!
It also makes the BAP almost useless, but you can at least DETECT the jamming with it.

ROFL, Sarna

Atleast use info from actual gamebooks my friend:

Total War

Quote

ECM SUITE
An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a
“bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities
affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight
traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the
unit carrying the ECM.

In the ECM diagram, the ’Mech in Hex A on the Open Terrain
#1 map is equipped with an ECM suite, which has an eff ect
radius of six hexes (shown as the shaded area). The suite
aff ects any enemy unit in this area or any enemy LOS traced
through it. The ’Mech in Hex B is aff ected because it falls inside
the eff ect radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex D would also be
aff ected because LOS passes through the radius. A shot from
Hex C to Hex E would not be aff ected because LOS does not pass
through the radius.

Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following eff ects
on the following systems. The ECM suite does not aff ect other
scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting
computers.

Active Probe: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area
of eff ect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed,
however.

Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the eff ects of Artemis IV fire
control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as
normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits
Table bonus.

Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an
attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that
system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The
Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not aff ected by ECM.

C3 and C3i Computer: ECM has the eff ect of “cutting off ” any C3-
equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from
the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire
portion of the network below it is eff ectively shut off (all units
subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 132). Only those C3 units able
to draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass through the
ECM radius can access the network. If the master unit that connects
the lances of a company lies inside the ECM eff ect radius, the link
between the lances is lost, though each lance’s network functions
normally (unless the ECM also interferes with them individually).

Techmanual

Quote

Introduced: 2597 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct: 2845 (Inner Sphere)
Recovered: 3045 (Capellan Confederation)

Around the end of the Reunification War, Johnston Industries
(a Terran Hegemony company, working in partnership with Yelm
Weapons of Fletcher) debuted the Guardian ECM suite on the newly
deployed Nightshade VTOL. This broad-spectrum jamming and
electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare
(EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems
had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional
electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and
smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical
“bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to
and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe,
Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV—all while simultaneously keeping
friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear.

Even today, the Guardian’s recovered technology remains highly
adaptable, not only capable of recognizing and countering the EW features
of its Star League counterparts but also newer technologies such
as the C3 and C3i systems. The Capellan Confederation has expanded
on the Guardian’s utility with their new stealth armor system, a new
role that will assure this powerful piece of technology a place on the
battlefi eld for the foreseeable future.
Predictably, the refined (and name-brand free) Clan version of the
Guardian achieves the same eff ects with a third less weight and half
as much bulk. Though the technology was largely in decline for a time
among Kerensky’s children, their return to the Inner Sphere and the
growing preponderance of EW systems has prompted more and more
Clan machines to hit the field armed with ECM systems.

There are expanded rules for ECM in Tactical Operations, but they describe ECCM and Ghost Targets. So I didn't include them here.

[StalaggtIKE]

Norman Knight, on 14 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Closer to reality would be a Counter-ECM-System integrated into the normal mechs sensors that tries to filter the noise out and allow a lock on after a 3 times longer time period (maybe only 2 times longer with BAP).

Guardian ECM did not have a ECCM, however I remember reading somewhere that the C3 computer system had a built in radar descrambler, that functioned as an ECCM. It wasn't a full on counter, mind you. It only translated to a small multiplier against ECM. But if PGI were to implement a built-in ECCM that must be toggled once caught in ECM bubble. With a percentage of success rate to counter ECM. The more set to counter, the higher chance of a success rate. In which the ECM pilot must "toggle" to re-establish radar distortion (think toggling to a new channel). Now that would be information warfare!

[Norman Knight]

Stormwolf, on 15 January 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

ROFL, Sarna

Atleast use info from actual gamebooks my friend:

Total War



Techmanual



There are expanded rules for ECM in Tactical Operations, but they describe ECCM and Ghost Targets. So I didn't include them here.

Well, not everyone can have al the books. :-/
But its nice you share your knowledge.

As it reads now, everything is totally simple: Remove the jamming completely!
No, I'm not joking. Referring to these texts ECM is just a Artemis/NARC/BAP disabling device. Nothing more, nothing less.
Everything would be (nearly) as it was one month ago and no one has to cry anymore (ok ok, maybe some Raven jockeys).

[TehCable]

Please vote in the poll on this topic in Suggestions:

http://mwomercs.com/...-communication/

[Sesambrot]

StalaggtIKE, on 15 January 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Your full statement was contradictory. That's why I gave you a hard time. I get what you were saying and actually agree with you. I just get tired of people trying to tiptoe around the ECM issue, as if the MWO gods will become angry and smite you. Yes, it's unbalanced. Does it mean it's unbeatable? No.

If we expect it to get addressed we need to state our concerns in a precise and clear manner. None of this "it's fine, just need to be tweaked a little" mess. Developers see the first part of that statement only,..."it's fine."

Now you're blaming me for my first sentence, in a topic that begins with the words: "ECM isn't broken"...
In fact, I don't think ECM itself is the problem, but the fact that whoever makes balancedecisions around here has no freakin' idea about it.
See, I'm not being catious, just saying what I think.
To be frank, this whole game is an unfortunate succession of poor judgement!
To give you some examples aside of ECM:

Gaussapult - Twin Gauss ain't broken even though the weapon itself could use some tweaking, the biggest problem about it is the fact that the damn things are in the sidetorsos...

Lagshield - I will admit back in CB it wasn't perfect but at least I remember being able to hit lightmechs every once in a while. It's a mystery to me how it's possible to break something that has worked more or less so badly!
Granted, they're not warping around anymore but the hitboxes of fast mechs are at least 2-5 mechlengths in front of where the mech is displayed. That's pretty much unplayable!

Servers - Supposedly these folks made a shitload of money from Foundersales, and I know for a fact there are still enough people who buy mechs for 20+ bucks, so how the hell do you not manage to put up a european server already?!? Hell, a server somewhere closer to the US-coast would probably work better than freakin' Canada!
The lagshield wouldn't be as much of an issue... God, both Hawken and Planetside2 managed to get those live during CLOSED BETA!

Matchmaking - Hands up who actually thought this was a good idea? I actually thought this could be a temporary solution, but then they allowed teams to consist of two 4-man-groups... :facepalm:
Who the hell was dense enough to think people wouldn't figure that out and start syncdropping again?! (for the record, the ELP stopped that when the devs asked the community to)
What's even worse is labling it an exploit and threatening to punish people for doing it. It's not an Error that allows people to do what they aren't supposed, the system was never designed to handle that problem in the first place! It's nothing more but a stupid aliby...

As for badly designed systems:
Conquest - It was utterly predictable that this would turn into Deathmatch with an additional win-condition if people weren't given enough incentive to actually go cap... and guess what?!
Played several rounds of conquest, and actually managed to win several times by capturing.. I would have made a lot more money and XP by simply killing the enemy...

And then there's of course ECM which I already addressed...
So much for me tiptoeing around the subject.

All those things are known, but eventually people just gave up, because it hit's deaf ears anyway...
All those issues could/should have been addressed long ago (with the exception of the Gaussapult as that's a debatable one), but if anything, it's only gotten worse so far...