261 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

RedDragon, on 14 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Are you nuts? Large lasers have barely a DPS of over 2 and you want to make the MG deal that much damage?

Max range is 200m on MGs.
Large lasers have max range of nearly 800m.

If close range weapons don't have higher DPS, there is no reason to use them over longer range weapons.

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I find Paul's idea quite interesting, we have to see how it works out. MGs are not meant to be high damage dealers. They are auxiliary weapons (yes, for mech combat, but still only auxiliary). They are meant to be fired while your other weapons cool down or are destroyed. And that's where Paul's idea comes into play. You fire your main weapons at the target while continuously pelting it with your MGs. While you other weapons recharge, the MGs may crit something in the progress. Given, in some cases it's not worth waiting for any component to be destroyed, but in other cases it's well worth it. Ammo will instantaneously blow a side torso and an arm; when a main weapon (AC/20 or Gauss) is hit, you don't need to further target that area etc. Also think of the head - how many times did a lucky shot destroy the armor on the enemy's head but you couldn't hit it again with your large weapons? The burst-firing MG may very well score some crits in this case.
Long story short, the MG doesn't need to be viable as a damage dealer. It is an auxiliary weapon and Paul's way of approaching it seems promising in this regard.

No, it's not promising. It's a waste of space. Smart people will take weapons that both do damage and destroy equipment, not something that only does one... after some other weapon system removes the armor.

Bad game design.

EDIT/Caveat: If there ZERO other useful weapons that will fit on a 'Mech, the MGs will get used. Perhaps that's the idea... make them worth more than an extra HS... which is what I would usually put in their place. Correction: What I will still put in their place.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 14 January 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Slashmckill]

Ok, i have to agree with the OP to a point, Light mechs with multiple ballistics hardpoints need something to make those points worth using. Machine guns need to at the very least do 1 dps, this by any means does not make them good at striping armor. It's fine that PGI wants to make them crit seekers but this seems like this kinda thing would be better with different ammo types. (i.e armor piercing rounds to breach armor then switch to dum-dums to tear internals... thinking of crimson skies mostly)



1 dps at 90m is not a game breaker by far, it would be just enough to let light mechs use their ballistic slots and not be considered in a "trolling" build.


(at the very least they could try it for a week and see what people think, this is a "beta" is it not?)

Edited by Slashmckill, 14 January 2013 - 08:42 PM.

[Eddrick]

Jade Kitsune, on 14 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Paul's got an idea here to make MG/Flamers useful beyond their current non-useful position.

Just because you don't like the idea, doesn't mean it's not valid. I mean, frankly, this change would actually warrant me using build ideas that utilize MG's or Flamers as something of a "finisher" weapon, or something to use while cooling down on a hotter build.

There's plenty of options this brings up, is it the perfect solution? Far from it, but let's see where it goes before we knock it yeah?

In this case. It makes sence to me.

GODzillaGSPB, on 14 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I'd say it's still viable for those mechs or those hardpoints that are limited by the overall tonnage and role of that mech.

Let me give you a few examples:

• The Hunchback 4G with it's three ballistic slots in the RT can now mount two MGs and they could actually do something.
  
• The Raven with it's two ballistic slots and usually no use for them due to low tonnage.
  
• The Catapult with the two ballistic slots can now play its role and mount some MGs. It is not limited to the "Gaussapult".

I'm not saying it is ideal, but it adds a bit of variety to the game.

Also, this part about the Catapult-K2 makes sence. The role of the Mech is "Direct support fire". The part for the other two also make sence. It was never ment to be a primary weapon for damage. Simlar to the way that Mechs like the Catapult-K2 is not ment to be a primary damage dealer for a group.

[Monky]

Buffing the MG with massive crit multipliers will make MWO into backshot and headshot fests...

Dragon, Cent, Hunchback etc with 3 ballistic hardpoints, as many large lasers as they can tote, maybe some streaks for backup against faster opponents. Clear the back armor, or head armor, and then simply crit the engine or pilot while waving your crosshair around like a buffoon.

MG need a damage buff, which in turn provides higher component kill rates by dealing, well, more damage to them. Messing with crit rates and especially with multipliers leads into very hard to balance and very open to exploitation territory due to the simple fact that you can use more than one MG on many mechs. You have to take into account the worst case scenario (imo, headshot/backshot) in order to prevent them from becoming overbearingly annoying with this method, with a simpler damage only method, they just become a more effective all around weapon without really risking any obscene 'omg they stripped my ct armor and 1 second later my engine was crit by 40 mg bullets landing in my CT from a cicada'. The problem with taking into account the worst case scenario, is it overbalances for the best case scenario, a single MG being used in an actual firing solution, which would be useless with this setup.

Make the MG a viable combat weapon. It's as simple as that. You don't need any frills or fancy crit system - just make the damn thing work!

Edited by Monky, 14 January 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Eddrick, on 14 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

In this case. It makes sence to me.

Also, this part about the Catapult-K2 makes sence. The role of the Mech is "Direct support fire". The part for the other two also make sence. It was never ment to be a primary weapon for damage. Simlar to the way that Mechs like the Catapult-K2 is not ment to be a primary damage dealer for a group.

Tell that to the Piranha, some mechs use them, its just that in canon, they were such close range that most mechs couldn't use them as a primary weapon. Light mechs do happen to boat them though, especially with the addition of MG Arrays.

[Dragonkindred]

DrxAbstract, on 14 January 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

This sort of dilemma, and many others, is heavily dependent on a properly functioning hit detection and netcode system, which until corrected will only add to the Light mechs are 'OP' stigma.

This says it all.

(puts flame suit on)

What I'll add to this is; Machine guns were never intended to be good against mechs. They are a stop gap weapon that is all. Originally designed to shoot infantry, they can be used against mechs when your heat is too high instead of doing nothing.

Any idea to increase machine gun damage is bad.

If any weapon should have increased chance to do crit damage, it should be pulse lasers.

[stjobe]

Dragonkindred, on 14 January 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

What I'll add to this is; Machine guns were never intended to be good against mechs. They are a stop gap weapon that is all. Originally designed to shoot infantry, they can be used against mechs when your heat is too high instead of doing nothing.

This is just plain wrong. Wrong, and contrary to Battletech canon.

As I posted above, the MG in Battletech does 2 damage to 'mechs. Exactly as much as an AC/2, and 2/3rds of the damage of the Small Laser.

It also happens to be very effective against infantry, doing 2d6 damage against them, but that's neither here nor there. The MG in Battletech is an anti-'mech weapon - and it should be in MWO as well.

[TruePoindexter]

Bilbo, on 14 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

If you have to wait for heat to come down just after stripping the armor, the MGs could have a purpose as he describes them.

*nods* The idea of the fix is to give them a purpose but not make them front line weapons. I can easily imagine now a 4G with 1 AC20 and 2 MGUNs. The MGuns are there to rip apart components while the AC20 is there to rip off armor. The combination could be interesting.

EDIT: Personally I do think they still need a DPS boost but not much of one.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 14 January 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[AC]

Yeah that is a GREAT config, given the fact that the hump is the first thing (and the easiest thing) to shoot of a hunchie....

[stjobe]

TruePoindexter, on 14 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

*nods* The idea of the fix is to give them a purpose but not make them front line weapons. I can easily imagine now a 4G with 1 AC20 and 2 MGUNs. The MGuns are there to rip apart components while the AC20 is there to rip off armor. The combination could be interesting.

Only issue is this: Why fire the MGs and hope for crits instead of firing the AC/20 a second time and destroy the location outright?

[DrxAbstract]

Make MG's a 10dps weapon, give it a spread worse than the LBX... Perfect Dark Reaper anyone?

http://youtu.be/Q2uQqEG-3WE

Edited by DrxAbstract, 14 January 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[Dragonkindred]

stjobe, on 14 January 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

This is just plain wrong. Wrong, and contrary to Battletech canon.

As I posted above, the MG in Battletech does 2 damage to 'mechs. Exactly as much as an AC/2, and 2/3rds of the damage of the Small Laser.

It also happens to be very effective against infantry, doing 2d6 damage against them, but that's neither here nor there. The MG in Battletech is an anti-'mech weapon - and it should be in MWO as well.

Canon is 6 seconds worth of damage, is it not? (it's been a long time for me). If it is 6 seconds then your machine gun is already doing 2.4 damage and the AC2 is doing 24. So, by your reckoning, we should be nerfing machine guns and AC2s?

You should also look at dps per tonne.

It's the intent of the weapon that I'm basing my argument on, not your raw damage. Raw damage in MWO is very different from canon (as is many things). But machine guns were NEVER intended to be special/uber/great or any other word you would like to use.

Edited by Dragonkindred, 14 January 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[HRR Insanity]

Bagheera, on 14 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Also, critique of the fix completely ignores team-work.

No, it doesn't. It makes my point even more valid. If you don't have concentrated fire, you don't have a team. If your called target has no armor, then SOMEONE on your team had best be doing damage to that unarmored thing and they're sure not going to wait around for someone with MGs to 'crit find' it. They're going to blow that limb/torso/leg clean off.

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Assault/Heavy taking massive shots at the armor, partnered up with a 4MG CDA aiming for the open sections - off the top of my head.

And why wouldn't a 6ML or 6SL Cicada be directly better?

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Also interesting options for mechs that fit a big autocanon and have left over ballistic slots and not a lot of leftover weight.

Bring HSs. You'll do more damage over time and be more effective.

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In theory, the AC20/MG array combo could be wickedly brutal. Which brings me to my next point. Bilbo already pointed out heat. The other side is RoF. If you're starting at an enemies internals but all your weapons are on cooldown, the MGs give you a rapid crit maker option without having to wait for that Gauss/PPC or AC to cycle back up again.

Or you could have had 2xSL or 2xML and completely finished the section off at the same time you fired the AC20. From twice the distance out.

The proposed fix is a bad one.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 14 January 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

stjobe, on 14 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Only issue is this: Why fire the MGs and hope for crits instead of firing the AC/20 a second time and destroy the location outright?

Well you may miss with the AC20 and hit a different location. I can see this being effective against mechs with lots of armor/internals and big weapons (Atlas's) but not beneficial for smaller targets.

In the end though - it may just be better to forgo the MGun/Flammers and just get extra ammo/HS.

[HRR Insanity]

Bilbo, on 14 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

If you have to wait for heat to come down just after stripping the armor, the MGs could have a purpose as he describes them.

The 3-4 seconds is weapon recycle time. Not heat.

And no, there is no purpose if the end result of that 3-4 second delay is either:

A ) Any real weapon - Ripped of arm/torso/leg
B ) MGs - lots of busted stuff, then I fire the rest of my weapons to do A.

A wins.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 14 January 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

HRR Insanity, on 14 January 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

The 3-4 seconds is weapon recycle time. Not heat.

And no, there is no purpose if the end result of that 3-4 second delay is either:

A) Any real weapon - Ripped of arm/torso/leg
MGs - lots of busted stuff, then I fire the rest of my weapons to do A.

A wins.

I think what Bilbo was describing is where you are too high on the heat scale to fire other heat generating weapons not simply waiting for weapon CDs. One major boon of MGuns is that they generate no heat at all and can be fired without concern.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 14 January 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[HRR Insanity]

TruePoindexter, on 14 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

I think what Bilbo was describing is where you are too high on the heat scale to fire other heat generating weapons not simply waiting for weapon CDs. One major boon of MGuns is that they generate no heat at all and can be fired without concern.

Read my response. The end result of A or B is... A. Use the real weapons.

[Buck Cake]

I'd make the design team put together 3 variants of the mg/flamer buff and directly test all three. It could even be done in a (limited) public test over a weekend.

[Deathz Jester]

/beginsarcasm/ I'm going to interject with a well worded response. /endsarcasm/



MGs suck and wont be worth a damn until they get a range/damage boost.

[Mahws]

TruePoindexter, on 14 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

I think what Bilbo was describing is where you are too high on the heat scale to fire other heat generating weapons not simply waiting for weapon CDs. One major boon of MGuns is that they generate no heat at all and can be fired without concern.

At which point you should have used those extra tonnes/crit slots for another heatsink or two.

So, to make a machine gun worth taking you need:
1) An extremely heat inefficient build.
2) With spare ballistic slots/tonnage.
3) That is currently so overheated that it can't fire ANY weapons without shutting down.
4) An enemy under 100m away that currently has one or more internals exposed.
5) An enemy under 100m away that currently has one or more internals exposed with weapons that you can disable (not a leg, or an unused arm or side torso).

That's a pretty damn specific set of circumstances.

Edited by Mahws, 14 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.