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Adjustments To Streak-Srm 2-6


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Poll: Possible SSRM adjustments. (85 member(s) have cast votes)

What is the best sollution for more ballanced Streak-SRM launchers in your opinion?

  1. Add a minimum range (similar to LRMs) (4 votes [1.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.70%

  2. Make SRMs fly straight for a bit before they actually start tracking a target (33 votes [14.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.04%

  3. Reduce SRM damage per missile (20 votes [8.51%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.51%

  4. Increase spread of missiles to hit any part of a mech instead of only torso (46 votes [19.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.57%

  5. Reduce cockpit shake from SSRM hits (23 votes [9.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.79%

  6. Make it possible for a part of the fired missiles to miss the target (21 votes [8.94%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.94%

  7. Decrease missile maneuverability/turn rate (35 votes [14.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.89%

  8. Lower fire rate of SSRM (15 votes [6.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.38%

  9. ECM also prevents lock-on for friendly mechs (would have to work for SSRM and LRM) (8 votes [3.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.40%

  10. Require a new lock-on after firing (30 votes [12.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.77%

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#1 Roadbuster

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:31 AM

Everyone who played some matches will know that SSRM are very effective weapons if not blocked by ECM.
Currently there are only SSRM2 avaliable, but sometime in the near future we might see SSRM4 and SSRM6 implemented.
These bigger versions will have even more potential and if you look at the current types of light mechs running around, you'll notice that Jenners and other non ECM light mechs are very rare these days.

The point is that, even with the avaliable ECM, Streak-SRMs need some kind of restriction to allow pilots to counter them even without ECM and to force SRM users to use their piloting and tactical skills more than now.

There are some suggestions already, how to achieve this and I'd like to gather more ideas and the opinion of the players as feedback for possible adjustments.
So this poll will be updated as people come up with new ideas.


One of the best sollutions so far would be to add a minimum range for SSRMs which is discussed in this thread by Mahws. (at least in my opinion)
http://mwomercs.com/...alance-changes/

Edited by Roadbuster, 16 January 2013 - 11:56 PM.


#2 Fabian Wrede

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:35 AM

None of the above, Streaks shouls alwasy hit when fired as per tt rules. What make streak somewhat OP is that the concentrate damage to torsos to rebalance they should hit random location over entire mech and have ther damaged reduced to 2 pt per missile

#3 MoPo

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:42 AM

Yes, the point of Streaks, as I understand it, is that they'll only fire when they've got a lock (unlike LRMs for instance). But I think the point the OP is trying to make is about the "interesting" flight dynamics. I run Streaks on my Centurion and, in the time between getting a lock and the missile bay doors opening, your target can move quite a bit further to your side. This makes the missiles fly out in a ridiculously tight arc.

#4 Roadbuster

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:30 AM

View PostWrede, on 15 January 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

None of the above, Streaks shouls alwasy hit when fired as per tt rules. What make streak somewhat OP is that the concentrate damage to torsos to rebalance they should hit random location over entire mech and have ther damaged reduced to 2 pt per missile

You can't always use TT rules 1:1 for a FPS game. That would end in a mess.
PGI should take TT as base and adjust things for MWO as they get implemented.

Added your ideas to the poll.

#5 Sharg

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

Can I suggest an alternative solution? Remove the 100% hit rate, but guarantee that at least 1 missile will hit from each volley.


I think a lot of people, including PGI, misunderstand how Streaks worked in the original table top game. Streak SRMs had two mechanics:

1) Streaks did not guarantee that every missile in the volley would hit, but only that at least 1 missile would hit, since the missile hit table had a 1 missile minimum.
2) Streak launchers also conserved ammunition by preventing you from firing until you had a lock.

With these two mechanics combined, you can see Streak SRMs' real benefit: Every time you expend ammunition, you are guaranteed to do at least some damage, but not necessarily full damage.

#6 Taiga Gunman

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:33 AM

I think none of the above. SSRM's weakness is their range. Oppose them from the distance. Use ECM. Use more powerful weapon.

> Add a minimum range (similar to LRMs)
It's very strange for most-close-range weapon.

>Make SRMs fly straight for a bit before they actually start tracking a target
It's better to decrease maneuverability of SSRM rockets, so they cannot reach target from crazy angle (for example behing you). Rockets will try to follow the target, but because of increased turning radius, they probably exceed they flying path limit of 270 m and self-destruct in space. So, we'll get also this:
>Make it possible for a part of the fired missiles to miss the target

#7 Iacov

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:07 AM

i'd say let ssrms2 fly in a volley like the lrms
and let them fly straight for about 30-50 meters

that would be a combination i could live with

#8 Ashnod

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostWrede, on 15 January 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

None of the above, Streaks shouls alwasy hit when fired as per tt rules. What make streak somewhat OP is that the concentrate damage to torsos to rebalance they should hit random location over entire mech and have ther damaged reduced to 2 pt per missile


They already hit a random location, they should require a new lock for whenever it's fired

#9 ParasiteX

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:21 AM

You missed one choice. Reduce turn rate on Streaks.

So pilots actually have to think, before shooting them. So they don't just lock and then fire randomly from any half-assed angle. That way streaks could miss and run out of fuel before hitting the target, if fired from a bad angle.
Then skilled pilots could use tight maneuvering, to avoid getting hit by the streaks.

#10 INSEkT L0GIC

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:50 AM

I've noticed that when I fire at a target that runs behind a friendly the SSRM will pass THROUGH the friendly to get to the target., so I think the only added "miss" would be by hitting a friendly or an obstacle.

A fast moving target CAN avoid SSRM by running to cover, if the angle is right. I've missed a few this way.

SSRM range will come into play more with the upcoming larger Alpine & Desert maps.

Edit: I think they should also dumbfire when you don't have a lock, like with LRM.

Edited by INSEkT L0GIC, 16 January 2013 - 09:56 AM.


#11 ArcDemon

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:20 AM

View PostParasiteX, on 16 January 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

You missed one choice. Reduce turn rate on Streaks.

So pilots actually have to think, before shooting them. So they don't just lock and then fire randomly from any half-assed angle. That way streaks could miss and run out of fuel before hitting the target, if fired from a bad angle.
Then skilled pilots could use tight maneuvering, to avoid getting hit by the streaks.


As an S-SRM user in my Commando 2D I would say this is the first step. Right now I can fire streaks out of my back at targets I can't even see. The missiles turn on a dime and seem to ignore some obstacles (like your own mech). I've seen some pretty crazy flight pathes, the new spider is so thin that in just one day I've already seen a pair of my streaks fly tight rings around a spider times like a hula hoop. This removes a lot of the 'skill' in using them (you still need a lock, which isn't as easy when you are trying to dodge fire at 140kph) and reduces most streak vs streak encounters to a numbers game instead of a skills game, which I think is the main issue. Unless piloted by a noob the Raven 3L will win against a Commando everytime purely because of the armor vs. damage per streak math.

I would start off giving streaks roughly 1.5x the turning speed of an LRM - they are smaller and better to maneuver but not god like as they are now. Then follow up by giving them a boost phase - the missile flys straight from the launcher for about 5 or 10m before the guidance safeties come off and they start turning toward their target. This would be an in universe safety against the missile trying to turn as soon as it left the launcher and hitting the arms of the mech that fired them. Finally ensure that streaks can in fact hit anything, including the mech that fired them (hence the safety feature of going straight at first).

Ideally streaks would remain as canon a 'guaranteed' hit, only the laws of physics would be added to prevent impossible shots. So as long as there is not a hill or another mech to block them streaks fired from 90-240m would hit everytime thanks to the ample room to adjust their trajectory. At the extreme end of the range there would be a chance for fast mechs to outrun the missiles fuel supply, while at very short range faster mechs moving at a bad angle to the shooter, or the shooter just not point his mech in the right direction, would require more turning speed then the missiles had. I would especially like to see mechs at short range having to 'lead' the target when firing a streak - fire a little ahead so that the unguided boost phase would take the missile to approximately where it needed to be to conduct a successful track and hit.

I'm not sure if I'd want to go a little farther and looser with canon by suggesting that streaks be able to lose their target - each streak would have the same kind of forward facing radar as mechs. If the streak lost it's radar image of the target it would try using the shooting mechs radar to reaquire. If both lose radar contact the streak becomes a dumb missile and flies straight until one of the two radars gets the target or it runs out of fuel. This allows a fast mech to run toward the streak firing mech and pass on one side - the streak must perform a 180 degree turn to follow during which time it loses the target. If it can't turn around before the shooter mech loses the lock too then the streak has been dodged.

#12 ElLocoMarko

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:36 AM

Please add "Enforce a Turning Radius" to poll.

Though if they added 10m straight flight and left the crazy u-turns then there could be an amount of self-shooting in the light-v-light skirmishes. Good comedy.

#13 Strum Wealh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostSharg, on 15 January 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Can I suggest an alternative solution? Remove the 100% hit rate, but guarantee that at least 1 missile will hit from each volley.


I think a lot of people, including PGI, misunderstand how Streaks worked in the original table top game. Streak SRMs had two mechanics:

1) Streaks did not guarantee that every missile in the volley would hit, but only that at least 1 missile would hit, since the missile hit table had a 1 missile minimum.
2) Streak launchers also conserved ammunition by preventing you from firing until you had a lock.

With these two mechanics combined, you can see Streak SRMs' real benefit: Every time you expend ammunition, you are guaranteed to do at least some damage, but not necessarily full damage.

The above-quoted post is only half-right. :)
  • "A player attempting to lock a Streak missile on target must make a standard to-hit roll during the Weapon Attack Phase as if he were firing a standard SRM. If successful, the player immediately fires his Streak SRM at the locked-on target. All Streak missiles automatically hit (no roll on the Cluster Hits Table is required), and the player rolls as normal to determine the hit locations. If the roll fails, the player does not achieve a lock and so does not fire the SRMs or build up any heat. The player must roll for a targeting lock each turn, even if he achieved a lock in the previous turn. The player must make a separate to-hit roll for each individual Streak system being fired." (Total Warfare, pg. 138)
  • "...while a Streak SRM launcher applies the damage from each missile to a separate location, it does not apply its damage using the Cluster Hits Table; if the to-hit roll succeeds, all the missiles strike the target." (Total Warfare, pg. 116)
  • "Developed as a means of conserving ammunition, the Streak system literally refuses to fire unless all of the launcher’s tubes simultaneously achieve a “hard lock” on their target." (TechManual, pg. 230)
Under normal operations, using the Streak system has exactly two outcomes:
  • the launcher achieves the necessary "hard lock" (in TT terms: the to-hit roll succeeds) and all missiles fire (expending ammo and generating heat in the process), in which case they are guaranteed to strike the target somewhere (in TT terms, the player does not need to consult the Cluster Hits Table to determine if the missiles hit, but they still need to consult the Hit Location Table to see where the missiles hit)
  • the launcher fails to achieve the necessary "hard lock" (in TT terms: the to-hit roll fails), in which case none of the missiles fire (with no ammo expended and no heat generated)

The exception to this occurs when, and only when, the Streaks are used against a target within a hostile Angel ECM (not Guardian, but Angel) field, in which case, using the Streak system has exactly two outcomes:
  • the launcher fails to achieve the necessary "hard lock" (in TT terms: the to-hit roll fails), in which case none of the missiles fire (with no ammo expended and no heat generated)
  • the launcher achieves the necessary "hard lock" (in TT terms: the to-hit roll succeeds), and "on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model" (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)
By contrast, Guardian doesn't change the way that Streaks work, but it does make it substantially more difficult to get the required "hard lock" in the first place by interfering with the sensors that would feed the information to the targeting system (in TT terms: it imparts a +5 penalty to the Sensor Detection Roll (with 2D6) described on pages 222-224 of Tactical Operations; the penalty is added to the outcome of the roll, and an end-result of 9 or more means that the sensors of the would-be attacker completely fail to pick up the would-be target (that is, the ECM-carrier)).

#14 RoloCookie

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:00 PM

Personally, I think that spreading streaks to all body parts is the best fix, balance them that way. If it turned out that that wasn't enough, I'd vote for lower their damage. Problem is, I don't agree with lowering their damage really, because it should be the same as regular SRM,

I'd be happier if they reduced the firing rate instead, because that would lower their effective damage, whilst having the additional effect of giving you longer to find cover etc. Maybe lower rate of fire could be added to the poll? I'd consider voting for that.

#15 ohtochooseaname

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

I'd like to see another category: ECM breaks the ability for SSRM's to lock on...even friendly SSRM's.

#16 DrSecretStache

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:42 PM

Heh, I was afraid I wouldn't see this idea. I'd say decrease their intense turning radius. It wouldn't matter so much for the bigger targets, but it might make them less of the Light killing machines that they are (though, not by too much).

#17 Pvt Dancer

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:44 PM

http://mwomercs.com/...dea-ecmstreaks/

Streak option number 3

Break lock after every shot and force Streaks to re-lock. This way they auto all hit but they do not have the rate of fire to be more effective than regular SRMs. Devs can then balance the Streaks based on how long it is needed to get a lock to make the weapon balanced against normal SRMs. Because SRM 2s are dead because of Streaks.

I would also increase the rate of fire of the different SRM systems based off of the SRM 6. SRM 2 fires 3x as fast, SRM 4 fires 1.5x as fast. This way streaks can be balanced against SRMs because when they do fire, all the missiles hit, but on the other hand you could have normal SRMs and have a higher rate of fire and be consistantly doing /some/ damage instead of none.

#18 Roadbuster

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:58 PM

Added the suggested ideas to the poll.

I agree that a reduced turn rate would be a nice change.

#19 Roadbuster

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:35 AM

bump

#20 Regrets

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:44 AM

Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! <moves through streets with an angry croud, pitchfork and torches in hand>

On a more serious note, there should be unlock after fire mechanism. Also should either not be 100% hit rate, and/or spread the damage to different locations.

In Summary, I find the interaction between ECM/SSRM very lazy. The implementation of SSRM is also lazy. The final product is a super imba SSRM+ECM mech, and lasers are kinda weak at the moment, in comparison, very very weak..





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