54 replies to this topic

[Gigastrike]

I say wait until the lagshield is mostly fixed before looking into nerfing streaks. Medium lasers outclass streaks in a lot of ways, and I think the only reason why we don't see that is because a lot of the damage is being negated.

[Kyone Akashi]

Taiga Gunman, on 16 January 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I think none of the above. SSRM's weakness is their range. Oppose them from the distance. Use ECM. Use more powerful weapon.

This of course does not work at all if your opponent is an ECM-equipped Light capable of outmanoeuvering and either jamming you or disrupting your jam (if you actually happen to be so lucky to own a 'Mech capable of equipping a Guardian suite).

SSRMs are perfectly fine - until people start to boat them. Which is why I kind of like Sharg's suggestion even though it goes against the TT... The more SRMs you have in a launcher, the higher your probability for additional hits should be ... but you still only get 1 guaranteed one.

However, I also like sticking to the TT mechanics as close as possible, and if the books say that lock needs to be achieved for each and every launcher individually, and that missile lock is lost after firing, then I would say that this is what should be done. It would at least solve the "boating" issue, although I am not sure what we can do once SSRM4+ show up.

INSEkT L0GIC, on 16 January 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

I've noticed that when I fire at a target that runs behind a friendly the SSRM will pass THROUGH the friendly to get to the target.

That is definitively not correct. I actually teamkilled a damaged Raven last night because he happened to run right into the flight path of my SSRM2 launcher a second after I fired. Very awkward.

[AC]

I like some of these suggestions, but I have two favorites that would follow battle tech quite closely.


1) Reduce the firing rate:

- This follows BT very well, because streaks would only fire if every single missile had a solid lock. SRM's would fire if ANY missile had a lock. (Contrary to the video game implementation, SRM's did lock and track their targets. Just rather poorly. Rocket launchers and MRM's were dumb fire.) It would make sense that to get every missile to get a solid lock would take more time than regular SRM's, hence a reduced firing rate. It would balance nicely with SRM's. Either you conserve ammo, use streaks, have a reduced firing rate, or you use higher firing rate regular SRM's, but chew through ammo quite quickly. I really like this suggestion and I hope the Devs consider this option.

2) Regain lock after firing:

- This one ALSO makes sense from both a battle tech and video game aspect. In BT, each SRM missile had to get a solid lock, so when you reload, it would make sense that you would need to re-establish lock again. From the video game perspective, I see streak cats and Ravens chain firing SRM2's non stop to keep up a barrage on mechs and do considerable damage. If they had to re-establish lock each time this would stop the chain firing effect of boated SRM's. It would give the target mech a chance to return fire. (Because I don't know about anyone else, but the streak smoke sometimes completely fills my view and I can't see what to shoot.)



These two options still make streaks a viable weapon, but give them a downside when compared to regular SRM's. It also would help to balance future streak SRM4 and Streak SRM 6's that are in the pipe. My hat's off to whomever thought up these two ideas. I am kicking myself for not thinking of them myself. They seem to be both a battle tech like and elegant solution.

[Kelpaz]

Alright you might call me lore breaker, but why not drop all this Table top rules and stuff.
The way the fluff explains it makes it sound like SSRM has an omnipotent AI targeting system.

Let's treat it like any kind of missile launcher that launches guided missiles (and cannot fire without lock)
This way we can look at the missiles launched like ordinary short range tracking missiles.
With reduced turn rates the missiles would get more realistic trajectories that doesn't make them able to make impossible manouvering aimbot missile turns.

For all I know, yes lasers can do more damage, but Streak hits like a randomly hitting mini AC bullet, while lasers often spread damage due to target movement.
Let's think outside the box so we are not restricted to what the rules say.

There's this equipment I found this on Sarna, worth looking into?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chaff_Pod

Consider how devastating the Catapult 6X SRM6 is right now, which requires ambushing and remaining hidden for maximum effectivness.
Now replace them with SSRM6, and you got a mech that instead of potentially being able to fire an 90 alpha on target now has 100% 90 alpha, which even if spread will destroy most mechs.

Edited by Kelpaz, 24 January 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

Consider how devastating the Catapult 6X SRM6 is right now, which requires ambushing and remaining hidden for maximum effectiveness. Now replace them with SSRM6.

The Clans will (maybe) have them but the Inner Sphere doesn't get them until 3058. So I wouldn't be sweating those Cats of Death and Doom just yet...

[focuspark]

Can I suggest a new option:

SSRM will only fire if the targeting computer believes the missiles will hit, otherwise it prevents the launch of the missiles. Once fired, there's nothing guaranteeing the missiles reach their target. Basically for your extra half ton you get a buzz sound when you attempt to fire your SRM2 when your lead sucks.

From Sarna.net (aka BattleTech wiki):
Streak Missile Launcher technology was developed and applied to the SRM-2 by the Terran Hegemony in 2647. It ensures that all missile tubes acquire a target lock before its missiles fire. This improvement upon standard Short-Range Missiles conserves ammunition and eliminates unnecessary heat buildup.

Notice that the intent of Streak SRM is to conserve ammo and heat, not guarantee hits.

Edited by focuspark, 24 January 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[MasterBLB]

*** off out the streaks whinners.They are just fine as now,no further nerfs are required.

1.Damage is just fine considering doubled amount of armor.
2.Hit chance is fine,next what,you'll start whinning that lasers always hit?Pathetic...
3.Speed and turn angle too.

What was making the streaks a bit too powerful was hitting CT only and smoking/shaking cockpit like hell.Even that wasn't a problem alone,but when mixed with Cat A1.Thankfully,that is corrected already,missiles spreads among RT/CT/LT(sometimes they hit limbs too),and the shaking has been significally reduced so it makes aiming for attacked mech inconvienient,but no longer impossible.
So only what reasonable could be done with streaks is:
1 Further reduction of smoke/shake effect (but now I find it fine as it is)
2.Change behaviour of missiles when shooting to not turn inside launcher but to fly ~15-20m straight then turn and follow the target
3.The major change which cooperates above, you'll have to keep target locked till the missiles hit.If you don't streaks should behave like LRM and fly to the last know location of a target.
That's it,no damage/speed/angle/unlock on shoot etc ****** nerfs.

[DoRkcHoPs]

there have been many many days where i wanted streaks to hit the legs but i feel like lights with their paper legs would suffer the most from this change. They already take damage from terrain and small 5m falls adding streak hits to legs would be very bad for them. I think damage and turn radius need to be reduced and they shouldn't fire sideways out of the missile launchers either. Once we have ppl with 6 ssrm6's running around lights will die too fast with the current system in place.

[focuspark]

DoRkcHoPs, on 24 January 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

there have been many many days where i wanted streaks to hit the legs but i feel like lights with their paper legs would suffer the most from this change. They already take damage from terrain and small 5m falls adding streak hits to legs would be very bad for them. I think damage and turn radius need to be reduced and they shouldn't fire sideways out of the missile launchers either. Once we have ppl with 6 ssrm6's running around lights will die too fast with the current system in place.

If SSRM remain mostly unchanged, then they should at least take this change: each missile targets a random (non-head) location.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Its pretty plain to see that an ECM Streak Boat is a bit much. Just make it stop, how I don't care, just do it. As it stands lights who dont have ECM and streak are just fodder for those that do. Yesterday we did an eight man drop. Every missle slot on the enemy team (yes heavy and assualts) were streaks. There are several good choices on this poll how to help the problem. I'm a big fan of the no streaks on ECM mechs, or turn the tracking way down on streaks. Relocking required after shooting would be a good back up choice.

[Calimaw]

If you're wanting to reduce SSRM damage, you'd need to reduce the missiles damage it fires.
In doing so you'd reduce SRM missile damage as well to be equal.

[KKillian]

Mech shoots streaks, turn torso to absorb with arm. Repeat as needed. Spreading the damage of a streak is not hard if you are prepared for it, which you should be after the first shot. Running in a strait line away from the guy shooting them at you is not the best plan either.

Properly piloted Jenners with no ecm are often impossible to hit with my streaks if they know what they are doing and those light mechs are pretty much the only reason I carry them other than the weight/price, use terrain to your advantage and anticipate your opponents cooldowns. Pretty much the only issue I have with weapons are the AC/2 and small pulse running too hot. Spulse should be dropped to 1.5 or 2, .5 tons for 1 heat and the only advantage is .25 delivery makes them almost completely pointless besides the people that enjoy the sound of them. Honestly everyone I meet that uses small pulse, thats their reasoning.

The only adjustment I could suggest for the streaks would be a longer cooldown but that would make them just about useless. Point blank splash damage would be nice although I'm not sure if it already happens, I swear I saw a guy blow himself up point blank srming someone but he may have been running too hot. Splash damage!
Evasive action is the only course!

Edited by KKillian, 24 January 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

I like the idea of forcing a re-lock after every shot. However I also agree that turn rates & tracking for both SSRM & LRM need to be revisited.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 24 January 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[Theobald Hauser]

Streaks are already being looked into about spreading damages to every location (they are already spreading between torsos and, when unlucky, to the arms).
A new lock-on after each firing seems a good point, and it won't lower their dps given how slowly they are already firing.

Focuspark, stop lying abour the rules. You have been told at least half a dozen time you're wrong about TT. You're wrong. And you're deliberately ignoring the sentence one line above the one you're quoting. That's all. Stop it.

Edited by Amarius, 24 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[focuspark]

Amarius, on 24 January 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Streaks are already being looked into about spreading damages to every location (they are already spreading between torsos and, when unlucky, to the arms).
A new lock-on after each firing seems a good point, and it won't lower their dps given how slowly they are already firing.

Focuspark, stop lying abour the rules. You have been told at least half a dozen time you're wrong about TT. You're wrong. And you're deliberately ignoring the sentence one line over the one you're quoting. That's all. Stop it.

I dunno there bug, calling me out for lying about the rules when all I did was copy-paste from sarna.net, the unofficial BattleTech wiki is kinda messed up. Keeping lock on just means SSRM are nerf'd by ECM - if you're happy with that, then so be it. I don't use 'em except when I'm trying to see what all the fuss is about.

[Theobald Hauser]

I already answered on another thread (on two dozen other threads in fact, where you were saying again and again the same lies). You're intentionally lying, ignoring, and passively insulting everyone that tried explain to you kindly what you are wrong about.
I'm really hoping that you're nearing the ban wall.

Just so everyone can see it again :

> http://mwomercs.com/...-to-the-streak/

You're clearly evading a simple fact : all SRMs, LRMS, and Streaks in TT are guided.

And that a Streak...
ensures that all missile tubes acquire a target lock before its missiles fire.
Note "target lock".


Still denying ?
See the MRM page (that you read, when we spoke earlier)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/MRM
See ? They are the only unguided "missiles"

Edited by Amarius, 24 January 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Roadbuster]

Kyone Akashi, on 24 January 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

However, I also like sticking to the TT mechanics as close as possible, and if the books say that lock needs to be achieved for each and every launcher individually, and that missile lock is lost after firing, then I would say that this is what should be done. It would at least solve the "boating" issue, although I am not sure what we can do once SSRM4+ show up.

And that's the point. Even if SSRM2 were fine now, once SSRM4 and SSRM6 make their way into the game, we'll have murder lights running around.
Just think of a Commando-2D with 3 SSRM6 and ECM...
Won't be any fun for a laser Jenner.

MasterBLB, on 24 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

*** off out the streaks whinners.They are just fine as now,no further nerfs are required.

And that's where you are wrong. As I said, they might be ok now, but once we get the bigger launchers and you suddenly face mechs with trippled SSRM2 firepower you will change your mind.

Better to find a way to prevent SSRMs from being too strong before they are implemented to prevent the real whining that will start then.

[Theobald Hauser]

So you want to nerf things that aren't in the game. That's...

[Nexus Omega]

+1 for the post by Strum Wealh:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1748873

All those change sound like Gold!

+1 for a 5-10 meter flight time before homing,
+1 for reduced turning ability (greater turning circle) no more crazy spinning Streaks!

I think those 3 things would balance streaks, (plus changing ECM, slightly)

[Strum Wealh]

Nexus Omega, on 25 January 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

+1 for the post by Strum Wealh:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1748873

All those change sound like Gold!

+1 for a 5-10 meter flight time before homing,
+1 for reduced turning ability (greater turning circle) no more crazy spinning Streaks!

I think those 3 things would balance streaks, (plus changing ECM, slightly)

While the +1 is appreciated, I feel it necessary to clarify that the linked post is more of an explanation of how/why Streaks work the way that they do, and how/why Streaks and ECM interact in the manner that they do.

As far as an actual proposal, I feel that this post and this post, taken together, would achieve the desired effect in a manner that is scalable and applicable to Streak launchers of all sizes and both tech bases.

-----

Paul Inouye, MWO's Lead Developer, has indicated that they are working on Streak SRM balancing.

Quote

On the SSRM direct front, another fix has gone in where the SSRMs will now use arm and leg joints as viable lock-on targets. This spreads damage out more. I'll be working with David B on testing to see if the current implementation of SSRMs along with the reduced cockpit shake and smoke reduction will be enough of a nerf to help counter the SSRM effectiveness without having to directly hit damage/cooldown/heat etc.

The official BattleTech rules - specifically, pg. 138 of Total Warfare - give a relatively comprehensive explanation of how Streak launchers work.

Quote

A player attempting to lock a Streak missile on target must make a standard to-hit roll during the Weapon Attack Phase as if he were firing a standard SRM. If successful, the player immediately fires his Streak SRM at the locked-on target. All Streak missiles automatically hit (no roll on the Cluster Hits Table is required), and the player rolls as normal to determine the hit locations. If the roll fails, the player does not achieve a lock and so does not fire the SRMs or build up any heat.
The player must roll for a targeting lock each turn, even if he achieved a lock in the previous turn. The player must make a separate to-hit roll for each individual Streak system being fired.

I am of the personal opinion that instituting the tendency for Streak missile systems to break their lock upon firing and the subsequent need to re-acquire the lock before firing again (per the BattleTech rules), in combination with the greater spread that the Devs are working on, would fit with Paul's stated intent to "help counter the SSRM effectiveness without having to directly hit damage/cooldown/heat etc".

Specifically, it changes the firing cycle from "Lock -> Fire, Fire, Fire, Fire..." to "Lock, Fire -> Lock, Fire -> Lock, Fire -> Lock, Fire...".
Doing so would make the weapon significantly less "spammy", as the effective rate of fire is then governed not by the cooldown of the weapon (which doesn't necessarily have to change), but on how quickly the 'Mech's Targeting-Tracking System (TTS) can acquire/reacquire the missile lock and how quickly the pilot/player can put the reticle on the target (and for how long they can hold it there).
Even massing them on a single 'Mech (as is typically done on the CPLT-A1) would not change this; while said Streak-boat may be capable of tremendous damage per salvo, the rate at which those salvos are delivered - especially against faster targets, like Lights and some Mediums, that can evade being locked-onto - would decrease, possibly substantially so.

I also believe that this could also scale well with regard to the larger Clan SRM launchers and their eventual IS counterparts. As with the other missile types, the larger Streak launchers could have a longer recycle time than their smaller brethren, and the proposed firing pattern ("Lock, Fire -> Lock, Fire -> Lock, Fire -> Lock, Fire...") would actually lead to a (slightly? significantly?) slower firing rate as the attacker would (still) spend a significant amount of time establishing a lock rather than actually having one, in addition to the slower recycle and the ability for faster 'Mechs to (for a time, at least) evade the lock-on to varying degrees.

In turn, this would also have the effect of making systems like the Beagle Active Probe and potential future Modules, which could/should affect time-to-lock (or that could/should be made to do so), significantly more valuable to such 'Mechs (which would then need to choose between equipping such things over other tings, and/or equipping such things in favor of compromises to other aspects of their design.

Your thoughts?