13 replies to this topic

[focuspark]

I thought Critical Fumble's suggestion on how to fix Streak SRM was good enough to deserve its own thread, currently it's buried so deep in another thread I doubt the devs would ever see it.

Basically the concept is this:

SSRM when fired project a TAG like laser that only the firing pilot can see. The beam needs to make contact with the target for a short period of time (maybe 0.5 seconds or something). Once the beam has hit the target long enough the missiles fire and work as they do now.

This effectively makes only one change to SSRM: make them as difficult as a laser to use, which isn't hard but requires more skill than attaining a lock on from around a corner than firing the second you pop out, even with no clear LOS to the target.

[CancR]

That would be a good idea only if the laser had to build on it for at least the time it takes for them to lock now.

[Bobzilla]

I like it. It's not hard to use, but not super easy. It also takes torso twist, or arm swing into account when aiming.

[CancR]

How about this addition:

~The tag laser must keep on the enemy for 2.5 second before firing
~The tag laser will not fire again till after the streaks cool down
~There is a spread modifier that goes like this:
-1: The laser keep on a single part the full duration; Streaks fire in their normal cluster
-2: The laser contacts 2 parts of the mech during the full duration; increase spread of misses 1.5
-3: The laser contacts 3+ parts of a mech during the full duration; increase their spread of misses by 2.5

[focuspark]

CancR, on 28 January 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

How about this addition:

~The tag laser must keep on the enemy for 2.5 second before firing
~The tag laser will not fire again till after the streaks cool down
~There is a spread modifier that goes like this:
-1: The laser keep on a single part the full duration; Streaks fire in their normal cluster
-2: The laser contacts 2 parts of the mech during the full duration; increase spread of misses 1.5
-3: The laser contacts 3+ parts of a mech during the full duration; increase their spread of misses by 2.5

Well... 2.5 seem punitive, since Medium Lasers only go for 1 second. Seems SSRM should go for about the same, maybe less due to the reduced range and ammo requirements.

I do think that lock on should decay, like it does now, if the guidance laser leaves the target. Meaning you can just accumulate lock on in 0.1 second increments over a 30 second period. Basically, you need to keep the laser on target and if roughly half of the 1.0 seconds is on target the missiles fire.

Can't make SSRM worse than SRM or other weapons, we're looking for balance not punishment

[CancR]

focuspark, on 28 January 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Well... 2.5 seem punitive, since Medium Lasers only go for 1 second. Seems SSRM should go for about the same, maybe less due to the reduced range and ammo requirements.

I do think that lock on should decay, like it does now, if the guidance laser leaves the target. Meaning you can just accumulate lock on in 0.1 second increments over a 30 second period. Basically, you need to keep the laser on target and if roughly half of the 1.0 seconds is on target the missiles fire.

Can't make SSRM worse than SRM or other weapons, we're looking for balance not punishment

True. this was my initial thoughts.

I don't think target decay should effect it, as tag is the same thing and target decay doesn't make tag even more accurate.

I think I came up with how long the laser should be on from how long it takes for it to lock now. If that is the case then I stand by that number (trading a skilless lock for a skillful lock) and if not then the number should be how ever long the lock takes currently.

[focuspark]

The more I think about this idea the more I like it, with some modifications to the initial idea.

SSRM is "fired" a beam is projected for up to 2 seconds. If the beam is kept on target for 0.5 seconds continuously or 1.0 second cumulative, during the 2 second limit, the missiles fire and hit their target as they do now.

Prevents blind lock on and pop tarting
Requires skill to actually use
Is not affected by ECM
Strong synergy with lasers
Uses a different system from LRM
Less impacted by lag than the "keep the reticle on the target until impact" version discussed elsewhere

[Zyllos]

I personally think it would be better to seperate the LRM locking with it's own SSRM locking system using the following suggestions:

Comprehensive Issues and Suggestions for MWO

Quote

Issue Six: Always SSRMs

While the netcode issues might be the reason why Light on Light fights are almost always with ECM/SSRM circle jerk fights, many still believe SSRMs are not in a good place. There are two major issues, beyond netcode, as to why Lights almost exclusively use SSRMs:

- SSRMs lock mechanic works like LRMs, being much to easy to keep the lock.
- SSRMs turn radius is much too tight.
- SSRMs only lock onto LT/CT/RT instead of also including LA/RA/LL/RL.
- SSRMs guarantee damage, thus higher DPS of the same SRM launcher size.

Some suggestions on helping make SSRMs more balanced with SRMs:

- Seperate the lock mechanic from LRMs. For every 0.5s the crosshair is on the target, a SSRM (not the whole SSRM launcher, just a single SSRM) is locked.
- Can continue to gain SSRM locks until every SSRM is locked.
- When a SSRM is launched, the launcher itself goes on CD (in the event of partial launches).
- SSRMs lock mechanic is much more touchy than LRMs. Not having the crosshair on the target for 1.0s, all SSRM locks are lost. But during that 1.0s, SSRMs can be launched for those that have gained the lock.
- SSRMs CD should be ~150% of a SRM launcher of the same size.
- SSRMs lock mechanic only starts within 270m range (SSRM range).
- SSRMs should have a maximum turn radius of 45 degrees (pi/2 radians) per second.
- SSRMs should also include the LA/RA/LL/RL into the random locations to home into.

What this should do is make the SSRMs overall DPS approximately 50% of a SRM launcher of the same size, assuming 100% hits with both launchers. Thus, if a player can land 50% of a regular SRM launcher missiles, he/she should produce 100% the damage of an SSRM launcher. This makes SSRM launchers better at sustained combat where you are making sure all of your SSRMs are landing on the target for damage while the SRM is better at sudden attacks, where firing as many missiles as quickly as possible then backing off or overwhelming the enemy with using as many SRMs as possible in a short amount of time, ignoring the amount of ammo used.

[blinkin]

focuspark, on 06 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

The more I think about this idea the more I like it, with some modifications to the initial idea.

SSRM is "fired" a beam is projected for up to 2 seconds. If the beam is kept on target for 0.5 seconds continuously or 1.0 second cumulative, during the 2 second limit, the missiles fire and hit their target as they do now.

Prevents blind lock on and pop tarting
Requires skill to actually use
Is not affected by ECM
Strong synergy with lasers
Uses a different system from LRM
Less impacted by lag than the "keep the reticle on the target until impact" version discussed elsewhere

elsewhere -> http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

this does seem to be much more well thought out than most of the streak suggestions that are being put out there. i have to admit i had not considered lag very carefully in my suggestion so it could be a major problem.

my suggestion came as a result of being frustrated with the endless stream of suggestions that wanted to nerf streaks until they were useless. (see post #4 although i will admit it is far from the most crippling suggestion)

Edited by blinkin, 06 February 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[focuspark]

blinkin, on 06 February 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

elsewhere -> http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

this does seem to be much more well thought out than most of the streak suggestions that are being put out there. i have to admit i had not considered lag very carefully in my suggestion so it could be a major problem.

my suggestion came as a result of being frustrated with the endless stream of suggestions that wanted to nerf streaks until they were useless. (see post #4 although i will admit it is far from the most crippling suggestion)

Understood. I do not want Streaks to be useless, just competitive. I want people to think "do I want the SSRM2 or the SRM2?"

[CancR]

blinkin, on 06 February 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

elsewhere -> http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

this does seem to be much more well thought out than most of the streak suggestions that are being put out there. i have to admit i had not considered lag very carefully in my suggestion so it could be a major problem.

my suggestion came as a result of being frustrated with the endless stream of suggestions that wanted to nerf streaks until they were useless. (see post #4 although i will admit it is far from the most crippling suggestion)

S what you are saying is, "I dont want to play Mechwarrior, I want to play a generic mech game and a bandaid over a fatal wound is fine"

Your 'Fix' doesn't really fix any of the real problems that is currently streaks, and moves away from Mechwarrior cannon. No and no.

All missiles in this current state suffer from bad math on the dev's part. They do far too much damage with little to no skill to use, and importing physics from unrelated games like ARMA isn't going to fix it.

The 'Crippling' on the other hand, wont make streaks useless, it will make them require much more skill which is what most players who decry the multitude of players wanting the exact same thing as you aptly point out are what players like you are really afraid of.

Streaks, along with flamers, and MG and most weapons are very Niche in the game. Streaks have been a very Niche weapon as they are no better at hitting a fast mech then a laser, and would does less over all damage, spread, and weigh more (then a medium laser)

Even by the tortured logic of wanting a streak ssrm to be comparable to a srm, if SSRM just dumb fired and homed, then it's still better then a SRM as its the same missile fire, only it homes on the reticle wich makes it better.

[blinkin]

CancR, on 06 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

S what you are saying is, "I dont want to play Mechwarrior, I want to play a generic mech game and a bandaid over a fatal wound is fine"

Your 'Fix' doesn't really fix any of the real problems that is currently streaks, and moves away from Mechwarrior cannon. No and no.

All missiles in this current state suffer from bad math on the dev's part. They do far too much damage with little to no skill to use, and importing physics from unrelated games like ARMA isn't going to fix it.

The 'Crippling' on the other hand, wont make streaks useless, it will make them require much more skill which is what most players who decry the multitude of players wanting the exact same thing as you aptly point out are what players like you are really afraid of.

Streaks, along with flamers, and MG and most weapons are very Niche in the game. Streaks have been a very Niche weapon as they are no better at hitting a fast mech then a laser, and would does less over all damage, spread, and weigh more (then a medium laser)

Even by the tortured logic of wanting a streak ssrm to be comparable to a srm, if SSRM just dumb fired and homed, then it's still better then a SRM as its the same missile fire, only it homes on the reticle wich makes it better.

do you realize how long 2.5 seconds is during combat? the AC 5 has a recycle rate of 1.7 seconds. imagine having to hold your sight on the target for the whole recycle time and then some to be able to deal damage.

i don't claim that my solution is the best way to fix everything, but it is better than pushing lock times to the point that they are useless.

one of the key points you missed about my suggestion was having streaks ripple out. this means that for all of the missiles to hit you would have to stay on target until the last missile hits. this gives the potential for all missiles to hit one component. it also leaves open the possibility for all of the missiles missing, and everything in between.

and as far as you firing the canon i will quote focusparks signature: If you insist on TT rules, then I will insist that all weapons have a standard 10 second cool-down timer

changing one weapon will not destroy the mechwarrior universe. sometimes realism or lore are sacrificed for the sake of game design. i would rather have 100% fun over 100% authentic. if you want 100% tabletop then go play tabletop.

[Critical Fumble]

You know, I was thinking about making a thread about that idea, and lock-ons in general.

And then I saw my name in the suggestion forum and made this face:

The basic idea has two goals:

• Make SSRMs behave like all other direct fire weapons: as deadly as the pilot using them.
  
• Future proof against the larger and more powerful Clan Tech launchers.

Now, how long is too long or too short for a lock? That depends on how the locking laser works. If its a single pulse with a cool down the difficulty of using it would rise sharply with both longer lock times and more evasive targets. If its an infinite stream with some decay if the target gets out from under it* the difficulty rises less in more difficult situations (like if ECM still makes them harder to use). Most of that is important because of the eventual Clan SSRM 4&6. Should those take longer to lock than SSRM2s? Probably, if we don't want to constantly eat SSRM6 alphas; but we also don't want to gimp the larger launchers, either.

*

Spoiler

eg: beam checks every 0.1 seconds, needs five successful checks to launch, decays by one check after 0.2-0.3 seconds without a successful check.

The other aspect was that a overall better shot gives an overall better result. My fist thought was given enough of the lock was on one hitbox, one missile would be guaranteed to strike there. Not sure how I feel about that one anymore, but it would directly reward player skill when using SSRMs.

The idea I come up with after that was more like a raffle. If all you manage to do is get a lock, the server gives one ticket per missile on each live component on the mech. You have a chance to cluster damage, but its a very low chance. If you do manage to get some worthwhile focus on a mech's component, the server would give more tickets to that component, making it more likely that you get clustered damage. Unfortunately, its a bit too random for what I was trying to achieve.

So, here's my current idea: The strikes with your lock-on laser are what add tickets to the basket. The struck component gets tickets at one rate and some or all of the connected components get tickets at a lower rate. That should reward players for actually aiming without being unfair to, say, assault mechs.

[focuspark]

Yes I was thinking along the same lines as C.Fumble. Laser pulse duration is up to 2.0 seconds long (shorter if you get a lock faster) with a cooldown identical to SSRM2. The cooldown prevents spamming.

I really do think 0.5 seconds for continuous (i.e. five 0.1 second ticks in a row) or 1.0 seconds cumulative (i.e. 10 ticks before the beam's 20 ticks complete) is a very balanced approach to keeping SSRM competitive with other weapons, and keeping them quite close to the TT/CBT equivalents.

I think one of the most important things about this approach to SSRM is people will think to themselves "do I want SSRM so I don't waste ammo/heat or SRM because they can be snap fired?"