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The Current Problem At The Light Mech Position


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#1 Protection

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:56 AM

I'm not going to pretend that there was ever a period of great diversity in builds or design at the Light mech position -- previously it was dominated by Jenner Fs and Ds, and now almost exclusively by the Raven 3L. But there are some glaring issues that were not present before.

Posted Image
(designs very similar or identical to this design have become a plague on the competitive/organized MWO scene: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a2a0ef2176da7db )

And before someone jumps in about how their 2 ER Large Laser Spider is amazing and racks up 1000 damage and 6 kills every drop, I am discussing this in regard to competitive and organized play, generally with respect to Run Hot or Die league and other organized 8-man drops -- not 4 man pick up groups or random solo drops -- where things are free to be a little different.

The design principles of good light mechs remains the same as ever: max or near max speed, max or near max armour, respectable heat management, efficient use of hardpoints, and optimization (Endo Steel, usually Ferro Fibrous, DBHS, etc).

But the thing about light mechs was that there used to be a pretty high skill ceiling -- it was generally where many teams put their most skilled pilots. A star light mech pilot could make all the difference between victory and defeat, and -- especially when collisions were still present in the game -- you could very quickly distinguish between a great light pilot and a weak one.

Now the netcode improvement has reduced the number of faux light aces running about with a lag shield, but the remaining light game remains more or less the same as when the lag shield was still present. 3L Ravens tediously attempting to get Streak locks to put down rival 3L Ravens.

And this is the problem: these light mech battles are tedious, do not require much skill (especially compared to the old 6 SLas Jenner days), and the moment that one side can achieve Streak lock or ECM superiority - then that side has won the light mech battle. An average pilot offers almost the exact same performance as a skilled pilot in these situations, and the ability to really excel is often limited.

The issues, as I see them:
  • Streak Missile Dominance -- streaks are basically the sure fire way to land damage on light mechs, especially because of the netcode, but even with perfect netcoding they would remain an ideal weapon. They are easy to use, benefit from half lock on time with Artemis IV (at no tonnage cost), and almost guarantee damage done. First team to get an opportunity to spam SSRM2s wins the light fight.
  • ECM requirement -- because of the success of Streak missiles, ECM becomes totally mandatory on light mechs. The null signature and disruption are nice kickers, but ECM is prevalent because it shuts down Streak missiles. Thus, every light battle is basically Ravens circle strafing one another until one goes down, and then SSRM2 the hell out of the remaining Raven. Sometimes a Cicada shows up.
  • Non-ECM lights will lose to ECM lights, smaller lights will lose to larger lights, and slower lights will lose to faster lights (generally in that order with regard to importance) -- making the 3L Raven the only real option (the 2D Commando comes close but is too easily blown apart). As such, we pretty much never see anything but 3L Ravens with ~3 Medium lasers, 2 SSRM2s, and a ~295XL engine.
  • Raven Hitbox Issues. The biggest complaint I have been hearing from our old Jenner pilots with regard to the Raven are the strange and messed up hitboxes. Hitting the Raven's "knee" area often puts damage onto a torso section, and even the improved netcode has not been reliable for leg hits registering properly.
  • Because of the Streak missile abuse and the Raven hitbox issues, precise aiming is not required or even expected from a light pilot in the current meta. The 6 SLas Jenner was never a brilliant or clever build, but it did require consistent aim and skillful piloting -- the 3L Raven requires none of these things.
  • Lack of Collisions. I realize this is being worked on and will be implemented at some point again, but with no collisions there is not much to separate great pilots from poor pilots, and little for light mechs to do in battle other than tediously circle strafe and hope for a Streak-lock.
  • Irrelevance of Jump Jets. Jump jets used to be a defining feature of good Jenner pilots, but they are much less effective now, to the point where many light pilots do not bother. Jumping offers little escape and limited tactical advantage, especially from Streak SRMs, so being able to jump means little when the ECM/Streak combination is dominate.

"The 3L Raven - It's the right mech for the light position for all the wrong reasons." - Maverix

Basically, the light position was previously one of the highest skill and most fun parts of the game. Now it has become the most tedious, flattest skill, and least fun - to the point where hardly anyone wants to play light mechs anymore.
In competitive games, mediums, heavies, and even to some extent assault mechs have diversified, and we are seeing a much wider variety of builds than even before. But the light mech position has never been worse. It isn't fun to play, there is no depth or variety, and one of the most challenging and interesting roles in the game has become one of the least engaging and most repetitive.

So what can be done to fix this? First, Streak SRMs need to change in some manner. They are well balanced against larger mechs, but too successful against lights and mediums. A slower fire rate, longer lock on time, or chance to avoid/escape (at the right angle or speed) would go a long way to easing the strain of SSRM2s. Without such threatening Streak missiles, the ECM issue becomes largely irrelevant, and skill can be expected again at the light position. The biggest problem with weakening streaks is that it simply restores the Jenner to power, rather than truly bringing diversity to light mechs. Slower and smaller designs still have little reason to be used until other changes are added, but it might at least make light mechs more fun to play again.

#2 Window

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:06 PM

Good post, echoes my thoughts on the issue exactly.

A solution to streaks not mentioned, slowing missile speed.

#3 PoLaR

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:13 PM

3L's definitely make It tedious to be any other light 'mech. I suppose you are correct In saying that the only way to nerf It Is to nerf the Streaks.. but again, they are somewhat balanced for fighting larger 'mechs. I agree with Window, on slowing Missile speed.

#4 axeman

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:17 PM

You litterally can't do anything in a light mech these days unless it's run counter to 3Ls. If you drive a light at anything less than all engine all the time then you can't get away from them, and staying with your whole team won't stop them running through your team, killing your commando and then leaving with your whole tream trying to shoot them. Not everyone wants to be driving the same 3 streak commando with max engine all the time to have any chance of driving one at all.

#5 Gammanoob

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:20 PM

Nice post and I definitely agree that the problem with the Raven 3-L is that it makes every other light mech pointless.

Unless you are trying to make the game harder or make it a personal goal to avoid using the Raven 3-L there is really no reason to use anything else.

They essentially kill any variety in the light mech class, which is a bit of a shame.

Edited by Gammanoob, 02 February 2013 - 12:21 PM.


#6 Denno

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:30 PM

A reasoned, rational and imformative post.

#7 80Bit

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:31 PM

I am not a passenger on the SS NerfStreaksAndECM, but your post makes very clear, reasonable arguments that I can't find fault with.

The reason I don't agree with most nerf streak arguments is that streaks are really not good weapons for anything but light on light. When a Raven runs up to my HBK-4SP, my CDA-2A, or any heavier mech, I simply absorb their low DPS while blowing their face off with my high DPS. But you are totally right about the 3L vs Any Other Light situation.


I think a good change to streak that would balance light on light fights while still leaving the weapon a balanced choice overall would be a miss mechanic based on target speed and maneuvering. When a streak is fired at a target moving 80kph or lower it keeps the current 100% hit tracking. But targets moving faster than that give the streak an increasing chance to fail to track and miss. For 120kph+ targets, perhaps there is a 50% chance the tracking fails. It would be even better to include the targets vector relative to the missile origin as well, but that may be much harder to code. You should have to get on a fast mech's 6 o clock to have a 100% hit chance.

#8 SilverlightPony

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:38 PM

Really, if you want to stay true to tabletop, Streaks should be a hitscan weapon (with a delayed animation so it doesn't look silly) that doesn't fire unless it gets a hit.

But yeah, something's gotta give. I had a blast running Ravens back in closed beta, before ECM. Now? I'm not looking forward to it.

#9 ivr56

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:51 PM

As a Jenner pilot from the pre ECM raven days. I approve this post, it is also one of the more well written posts on these forums.

Jenner F with full Jump Jets was alot of fun back in CB. now not so much, running a Jenner becomes somewhat of a chore with all the cheese ECM light builds.

#10 Inveramsay

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:16 PM

Argh, stupid forums not saving as it should. I wrote a long post about this but this is the abridged version

Nerf streaks, they should be less likely to hit the faster the mech goes and even shooting at a stationary atlas there should be a chance to miss. If streaks are less dominant other builds will be able to get into the game. The problem with diversity among lights comes from the fact that the 35 ton mechs now hit a sweet spot where engine weight isn't scaling up quickly but the mech is still big enough to carry a decent amount of weapons. If the speed cap was lifted so for example spiders could do maybe 180kph I'd imagine we'd see more of those. Unfortunately lots of the lights in lore wouldn't be around just yet, at least when it comes to 35t ones but if more 30t mechs were introduced it might upset the balance. I don't think the spider is a particularly good mech to have in the game with its incredibly limited set of hard points.

Another problem I suppose is with the ECM itself but that is worthy of another thread

I dusted off my Jenny D from the olden days and it was a blast. It feels so much more nimble than my 3L. Unfortunately the jump jets as you say are absolutely useless compared to how it was before. Even with four you don't get enough lift for them to be useful in combat, two more heat sinks or even changing to two MPLs would be a better option.

#11 Zylo

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostProtection, on 02 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

  • Lack of Collisions. I realize this is being worked on and will be implemented at some point again, but with no collisions there is not much to separate great pilots from poor pilots, and little for light mechs to do in battle other than tediously circle strafe and hope for a Streak-lock.
  • Irrelevance of Jump Jets. Jump jets used to be a defining feature of good Jenner pilots, but they are much less effective now, to the point where many light pilots do not bother. Jumping offers little escape and limited tactical advantage, especially from Streak SRMs, so being able to jump means little when the ECM/Streak combination is dominate.
"The 3L Raven - It's the right mech for the light position for all the wrong reasons." - Maverix




You mentioned collision knockdowns, it would be less important to use multiple ravens as seen in the 8vs8 drops if a team could simply knock down a light mech as in closed beta. Streaks wouldn't be needed as much since a lagging light mech could be knocked down and killed easily. The return of collision knockdowns would probably switch the balance to manuverable lights with more firepower.

ECM seems to be less of an issue if you choose not to run light mechs, which I know doesn't work for tournament drops which require them but it can be quite effective in normal 8vs8 drops as the added firepower of larger mechs makes it very easy to cut apart the enemy team with focus fire from direct fire weapons. We ran a few test matches with no lights and no SSRM2 based designs yesterday and found that you don't need lights to win in 8vs8 (we only had 2x ECM as well in those tests) but you do need to catch them early so they can't try to cap.

I know the ELP light pilots liked the Jenner when I was still in ELP so I admit it's difficult to not see the self interest side of making the Jenner the dominant light mech again.

#12 Hawkwings

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:58 PM

In the interests of not having Lights be the msot boring and bland chassis in the game, something needs to be done so that the Raven-3L is not the only viable high-level competition build. random games will always feature a variety of mech designs, some good and some bad, but when every single competition team is running nothing but Raven-3Ls with near-identical builds, then something has gone horribly wrong.

Zylo: this isn't about putting the Jenner back on top again. It's about having a choice besides run 3Ls or run no lights whatsoever. Like you said, in competition you must use lights (plus they are useful in any case) so a little more variety among lights would be nice. Again, right now you are silly to use anything but a Raven-3L for its combination of speed, ECM, light-hunting, and heavy harassing.

#13 w0rm

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:58 PM

Other lights are still viable they just have to work now with their team (read: drawing the ecm light into the range of the fat ones which now are able to oneshot them).

The hitboxes on the Raven are indeed strange. When I try to oneshot their legs with a double AC20 usually their arm or torso blows of.

Whats really needed are knockdowns. I'm seeing so much bad light pilots who constantly zerg into heavys/assaults and just pass through them.

#14 Hawkwings

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:04 PM

You are assuming a dumb raven pilot and a good non-raven pilot. You can't do that when everyone is at the same level of skill.

#15 Zylo

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostHawkwings, on 02 February 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

In the interests of not having Lights be the msot boring and bland chassis in the game, something needs to be done so that the Raven-3L is not the only viable high-level competition build. random games will always feature a variety of mech designs, some good and some bad, but when every single competition team is running nothing but Raven-3Ls with near-identical builds, then something has gone horribly wrong.

Zylo: this isn't about putting the Jenner back on top again. It's about having a choice besides run 3Ls or run no lights whatsoever. Like you said, in competition you must use lights (plus they are useful in any case) so a little more variety among lights would be nice. Again, right now you are silly to use anything but a Raven-3L for its combination of speed, ECM, light-hunting, and heavy harassing.

I seem to remember competition teams running nearly the same versions of the Jenner F in the closed beta tournament so this issue is not unique to the raven.

I do think collision knockdowns would give a reason to run the Jenner F again while also still leaving reasons to run the Raven 3L. The Raven would have the advantage when circling and vs other mechs that relied on locking weapons. The Jenner could more easily avoid collisions and could also be set up in pairs to have 1 of them tackle and the other shoot to take advantage of the 6 energy hardpoints.

Returning collision knockdowns would probably balance the lights best without making any specific light a "must-take-to-win" choice.

#16 Gidonihah

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:09 PM

Lights that have to stick near their team or be destroyed arnt being effective scouts. Lights that turn tail and run instead of fighting are dead lights taking Streaks to the back.

Non Streak lights are a blast to play but whenever you drop with one the opponents get a ECM streak light that immediately seeks you out and kills you.

The bugginess of the Ravens hitboxes increases the issue as Large mechs have trouble legging the things, in order to protect their lights. The issue would be much better if only non missile lights had ECM.. But that would just invalidate Streaks, or cause people to run 1 streak boat and 1 ecm light.

#17 Nahuris

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:15 PM

I like the Commando --- but I have to agree, outside of the 2D.... the rest are basically 3L fodder.
Thing is, I rather prefer either my 1B or my 3A.... because I like mounting a large laser, and using it as a quick hit and run sniper to support my team.... It's gotten so frustrating, that I finally went to a Dragon for a while.

Nahuris

#18 Zylo

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:23 PM

When you look at the pre-ECM game design after collision knockdowns were removed how many streak based lights did you see running around? Maybe the occasional Commando, Jenner D or sometimes a Raven?

It was mostly Jenner F designs running around with 6x small lasers or some similar design. Streak based larger mechs such as the 6x SSRM2 A1 streak cat became common to combat the lights that could no longer be knocked down.

ECM was added and Raven 3L pilots discovered they could easily beat the **** out of other lights as well as streak cats. The ECM + SSRM2 Raven 3L isn't about bringing superior firepower, it's about denying the enemy the ability to use their SSRM2s against the team with more ECM. Returning collisions will help when overall firepower and manuverability become more important than simply denying the enemy the ability to use their locking weapons.

#19 Team Leader

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

Agreed with everything

#20 seymourbalzac

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:36 PM

I agree that there is a problem with lights right now but I say wait until they bring in collisions to determine where light balance is really at for the long run.





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