53 replies to this topic

[Tristan Winter]

There's a lot of light mechs and small mediums that would benefit if the AC2, CAC2, CUAC2, CLB2X were viable choices.

Ironically, small ballistics have never been good for light mechs in this game. AC2's have been used more by Jagermechs and Victors than any light mech. The AC2 and its clan variants are rather heavy, and their damage is not worth the risk associated with continuous fire. However, continuous fire is not a problem in itself. After all, light mechs with medium and small lasers also rely on continuous fire.

Look at all the Inner Sphere mechs that have ballistic hardpoints, which you would never see rocking an AC2.
Locust, Spider, Firestarter, Raven, Cicada, Blackjack, Vindicator.*
And the Clan mechs?
Kit Fox, Adder, Ice Ferret, Nova.

The Ice Ferret, for example, has a ballistic arm with 1 hardpoint, with only 9 tons of free space. Put an MG on it, you've wasted an arm. Put an CAC5 on it, you've spent 7 tons and only have 2 tons for ammo and backup weapons. It's pointless. The Adder has a similar problem.

The Huginn works great with the MGs and SRMs, but what if you want some variation and try an AC2? You'll get smashed. It basically only has a single viable build (you get to choose between SRM4 and SRM6, yay!) and that's it. I know a lot of people have tried 2 CUAC2's on the Kit Fox. Sadly no longer possible due to the fixed jump jets, but even when it was possible, it was a lot of noise with no damage.

I'm not sure what a solution would be, beyond just saying "GIEF ALL TEH QUIRKS!" but one idea would be to make them too hot for boating, yet still capable of doing enough damage that a single AC2 is worth carrying. Heat isn't really a big problem for a light mech with 10-12 DHS and a single AC2, because it rarely has enough tonnage for a lot of extra weapons.

But I'd love to see a game where my Huginn can jumpsnipe with AC2s, my Ice Ferret can actually do damage with an CLB2X, my Kit Fox can snipe with CAC2's and my Adder can tear people up with a continuous stream of CUAC2 fire

TL;DR: Let small mechs have small ballistics other than MGs, plx

FAQ - Since a few points are brought up several times in this thread.

Q: What about rifles, MG racks, light ACs, light gauss rifles and other weapons from TT?
A: Those would be interesting, but the CAC2, CUAC2, CLB2X and AC2 still need to be looked at.

Q: What about improving MGs?
A: Same as above. It's cool, but the CAC2, CUAC2, CLB2X and AC2 still need to be looked at.


* Actually not entirely accurate. I use an AC2 on my Ember, and it's a lot of fun! 2 cool 4 meta

Edited by Nicolai Kabrinsky, 06 November 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[NextGame]

I agree that 2s are terrible at the moment, but I would also like mg's to be slightly more dangerous.

I used to run a CTF4x with quad 2's which was loads of fun until damage nerf then mechanics change, which basically turned that particular chassis into a scrapyard wannabe as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by NextGame, 06 November 2014 - 06:24 AM.

[GonaDie]

AC2 need's it's RoF un-nerfed. Also Rifles and MG arrays would help a lot IMO.

[StonedDead]

I think giving the AC/2 it's range advantage over the AC/5 back might be some of the solution. They were carried more before, albeit by heavier mechs, when they actually had some sort of positive aspect to carrying them. Without some(any) high point to the weapon, there is just no reason to use them.

[FupDup]

Zekester81, on 06 November 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think giving the AC/2 it's range advantage over the AC/5 back might be some of the solution. They were carried more before, albeit by heavier mechs, when they actually had some sort of positive aspect to carrying them. Without some(any) high point to the weapon, there is just no reason to use them.

Range would be nice on paper, but what we have to remember is that the AC/2 does so little damage that most other long-range weapons actually out-damage it until you reach quite a long distance past it's optimal range. So you'd basically just be plinking at people without being particularly threatening, and an ERLL would probably have just been better for that.

At least partially restoring the gun's rate of fire would make it more intimidating.

[Bacon_Warrior88]

What we need are Heavy Machine Guns. Double the weight (1 ton) for the weapon, 1/2 ammo per ton, and double the damage.

Solved.

[Alek Ituin]

There are actually a host of sub-6 ton Ballistic options that can fill the void. I made a list of lightweight weapons that could fill weight gaps once:

http://mwomercs.com/...ry-weight-gaps/

Just bring in the Light AC's and MG variants. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

[FupDup]

Alek Ituin, on 06 November 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

There are actually a host of sub-6 ton Ballistic options that can fill the void. I made a list of lightweight weapons that could fill weight gaps once:

http://mwomercs.com/...ry-weight-gaps/

Just bring in the Light AC's and MG variants. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

You forgot the Magshot Gauss Rifle and AP Gauss.

[Escef]

GonaDie, on 06 November 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

AC2 need's it's RoF un-nerfed. Also Rifles and MG arrays would help a lot IMO.

You realize that most rifles do all of jack and squat to mech armor?

[Tristan Winter]

Alek Ituin, on 06 November 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

There are actually a host of sub-6 ton Ballistic options that can fill the void. I made a list of lightweight weapons that could fill weight gaps once:
http://mwomercs.com/...ry-weight-gaps/
Just bring in the Light AC's and MG variants. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

With respect, I don't think it solves the problem. It adds a number of new weapons to the game, and PGI is struggling to balance the ones we already have. For example, the CUAC2, CAC2 and CLB2X are all going to stay useless no matter how many new weapons you add.

I want to do something useful with the weapons already in the game. It's a lot less work for PGI. The models are already in the game, and the CUAC2 in particular looks very tasty. Looks like the 20mm machine gun on a Cobra attack helicopter.

Zekester81, on 06 November 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think giving the AC/2 it's range advantage over the AC/5 back might be some of the solution. They were carried more before, albeit by heavier mechs, when they actually had some sort of positive aspect to carrying them. Without some(any) high point to the weapon, there is just no reason to use them.

That may help the Inner Sphere AC2, but it doesn't really help any of the other weapons. Clan mechs who want range will go with lasers. Nor does it help the light mechs with ballistic hardpoints and a lack of viable builds, which is what this thread is about.

I think the only way to help light mechs with ballistic slots is to make all the AC2-variants more deadly. But if AC2's are too good, we'll see a lot of assault mechs like the AS7-D-DC and Victor with triple AC2's, so there needs to be a lot of heat that prevents boating. I don't know if ghost heat is strictly necessary either, if the base heat is high enough.

I think ROF is the best bet, if PGI doesn't want to touch the damage value.

[Joseph Mallan]

Light Mechs have always been without the heavy but effective Cannons. They were light missile and energy platforms. also most of the ballistics you are looking at are not due for a while.

[Cyborne Elemental]

UAC-5 makes for a pretty powerful weapon on lights, even the Firestarter-H can carry it.
I use UAC-5 on my kitfox, but it just jams way too much.

If only they would setup single UAC-2 & single UAC-5 to have a much reduced jamming rate (and then bump up jams for each additional UAC to make boating harder), they would be great light/medium weapons.

I can only assume that for its weight, an AC2 should be replacing a single LL or ERLL, but it always feels vastly inferior ton for ton.

Best thing for AC-2's in general would be a heat reduction down to 0.75 heat (from 1.0)

Clans have a pretty reasonable option though with LRM's, 3.5 tons for a LRM15? thats alot of firepower.

Edited by Mister D, 06 November 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Light Mechs have always been without the heavy but effective Cannons. They were light missile and energy platforms. also most of the ballistics you are looking at are not due for a while.

Is does not an ought make.

KFX-Prime, ADR-D, CDA-3M, BJ1, BJ1DC, IFR-A all come with AC2's, AC5's, CLB2X, CUAC5, CLB5X. Nobody every uses those weapons for those mechs, except stoch mech enthusiasts. There's clearly a precedent for putting light ballistics on light mechs and small medium mechs, but there's no point in this game. I think it would be a step in the right direction if light mechs had the same kind of flexibility that other mechs have in this game. The choice between lasers, PPCs, SRMs, LRMs, ballistics and PPCs should be available to everyone.

And the clan AC2 variants shouldn't be so bad. I have yet to see anyone actually using the LB2X for the Ice Ferret A-variant.

I don't think UAC5s or AC5's need to be changed for either IS or Clans, because it's too hard to change them without messing with medium, heavy and assault mech builds. But AC2s and all the Clan AC2 variants are different. No clan heavies use the LB2X.

[DarthPeanut]

At the current heat scale un-nerfing the rate of fire will not really do much for the ac2.

[Alistair Winter]

DarthPeanut, on 06 November 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

At the current heat scale un-nerfing the rate of fire will not really do much for the ac2.

A significant buff to the ROF should do the trick. At present, a mech with XL250 and DHS with 2 AC's has 71% heat efficiency. With a single AC2, it's 143% heat efficiency. So it'd probably work with a significant heat nerf for the AC2, while increasing its ROF substantially.

[Phashe]

Need a 2-4 ton ballistic weapon to punch thru the lore-wall! :-) yes! I've been saying that for a few years!

[Tristan Winter]

Phashe, on 06 November 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Need a 2-4 ton ballistic weapon to punch thru the lore-wall! :-) yes! I've been saying that for a few years!

As mentioned above, that's not actually what I'm saying. And if PGI can't make the 5-6 ton ballistics worth carrying, what are they going to do with a hypothetical 2-4 ton weapon?

They need to fix the current weapons before inventing new ones. Give some love to the CAC2, CUAC2, CLB2X and the AC2!

[Jin Ma]

ACs are terrible on light mechs because 1. they are too heavy to fit on light mechs 2. The projectile speed is too slow to be used well in a mech taht goes 140+ speed. To target these 2 issues:

they need to add light ACs... or the rifles (more in the timeline), heavy machine guns

Light ACs should have twice the ballistic velocity of normal ACs.

Edited by Jin Ma, 06 November 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Jin Ma, on 06 November 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

ACs are terrible on light mechs because 1. they are too heavy to fit on light mechs 2. The projectile speed is too slow to be used well in a mech taht goes 140+ speed. To target these 2 issues:
they need to add light ACs...
Light ACs should have twice the ballistic velocity of normal ACs.

At the risk of repeating myself... the problem with doing this is that you're not actually fixing the CUAC2, CAC2 and CLB2X. The Inner Sphere AC2 also needs to be looked at, but it kind of works for a handful of builds right now. Fair enough, but it's completely useless on the Black Jack, for example, which is supposed to be an AC2-armed mech.

It's like saying "The ONLY way to fix the flamer and let Firestarters carry flamers without being a big joke.... is to introduce the HEAVY flamer". Well, ok, but that still leaves the flamer as a useless weapon. I'd like to fix that.

[Jin Ma]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 06 November 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

At the risk of repeating myself... the problem with doing this is that you're not actually fixing the CUAC2, CAC2 and CLB2X. The Inner Sphere AC2 also needs to be looked at, but it kind of works for a handful of builds right now. Fair enough, but it's completely useless on the Black Jack, for example, which is supposed to be an AC2-armed mech.

It's like saying "The ONLY way to fix the flamer and let Firestarters carry flamers without being a big joke.... is to introduce the HEAVY flamer". Well, ok, but that still leaves the flamer as a useless weapon. I'd like to fix that.

Sure but that is a seperate problem the AC2 has its own nitch as a heavier weapon for medium mechs <. But we are talking about light mechs right now.

With the velocity and the poor damage/tonnage it will never be a good weapon on light mechs