46 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

A comment I made in a different thread got me to thinking... (Yes, it was quite painful)

Right now forgoing premise is unless one contributes multiple kills and damage in excess of 300+ they were not strong contributors.

Being a American football nut I'm reminded of a quote issued by the great Vince Lombardi: "You never win a game unless you beat the guy in front of you. The score on the board doesn't mean a thing. That's for the fans. You've got to win the war with the man in front of you. You've got to get your man.

In short, I wonder if expectations for a single player to carry more than 1 to 2 kills in a game is setting individual players, particularly new players, up to fail or if not fail to leave them feeling disenfranchised when they are unable to meet these expectations?

Maybe it's just me (which it might be) but I'm okay with a match win or lose so long as I got a single kill... If I do more, I consider myself over-achieving and carrying the weight of a lesser skilled player.

Thoughts?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Similarly that is why I say that a KDR of over 1 is good. As long as (on average) you kill more people than you die, you are a positive influence for your team. If you have a KDR of less than one on average, you are more of a liability since you die more often than you earn kills.

Its a rough assumption since there are many other factors to consider (support, scouting, being a distraction, capper, etc...) It is just an approximation.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Still too many variables. You can get a kill while doing 50 damage. You can do 1100 damage, and get no kills.

At this point, I've accepted that the best thing for me to do is the best that I can do. If I'm on a team, that means being a useful cog. If I'm in solo queue, that means doing wat I can do further the team's win.

[Sarlic]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Similarly that is why I say that a KDR of over 1 is good. As long as (on average) you kill more people than you die, you are a positive influence for your team. If you have a KDR of less than one on average, you are more of a liability since you die more often than you earn kills.

Its a rough assumption since there are many other factors to consider (support, scouting, being a distraction, capper, etc...) It is just an approximation.

KDR does not mean anything in this game if we had bigger maps, a decent convergence system and more.

A good scout can even end up with a negative KDR if he's spotting alot but not interfering or engaging the team.

We would have better define of roles and if we had a decent module system we would have decent roles to take.

Instead we got small maps, ELO, no rolewarfare and facehuggers because everyone knows the spawns, KDR hunters, spacebar hitting scouters with no role and so on.

Personally i don't care about my stats. I care about the little teamwork i see here and there. That's what keep me rolling. Even when i die with no kills, a good push can be match deciding.

Edited by Sarlic, 14 April 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[Onmyoudo]

I agree with you, partly. However it's easy to tell which of your team mates has actually contributed and who hasn't from everybody's friend - the Q key.

Doesn't matter if they got 100 damage and 2 assists if they tanked the hell out of the enemy push and set your team up for the DPS win.

Doesn't matter if a scout only pulled 60 damage but warned the team that the entire enemy was going to hit them in the flank, allowing for a firing line to set up and wipe the floor with the reds.

It does matter if some guy in a Timberwolf charges the enemy 1 v 12 and gets 150 damage before kicking the bucket (metaphorically, not a Trenchbucket) and cursing the rest of the team out in chat for not supporting him.

Q key tells us all of these things, or at least gives us an idea. On the other hand, sometimes a team just gets rolled. I think as usual the real issue is a lack of tutorials to set up players (not just new players) to the point where in some games they're the guys carrying the team to victory, and in all games they feel like they've helped.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 14 April 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Still too many variables. You can get a kill while doing 50 damage. You can do 1100 damage, and get no kills.

Very true. Still, after hundreds of matches, those outliers have less of an effect on the average KDR number. The larger the sample size (number of matches played), the more accurate that number probably becomes.

I agree though, do the best you can. Be as effective as you, your team, or your mech will allow you to be. Always good advice.

[sycocys]

KDR is a worthless stat. I set up (core out) 30-40 targets to each kill I actually get credited for.

[cSand]

Heh,

I've definitely had a few 100-200 damage matches with 3+ kills



MAXIMUM THIEVERY

[MeiSooHaityu]

sycocys, on 14 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

KDR is a worthless stat. I set up (core out) 30-40 targets to each kill I actually get credited for.

I wonder how many kills you get that are caused by your team mates coring out a mech before you shoot at it and get the finishing blow?

These things have a way of evening out in the long run.

Again, like I said (and no one reads because they see KDR, stop reading further, any start typing), it is one of many stats and an approximation. I small aware it isn't the sole indicator of performance but one metric out of a few.

Jeeze, I forgot how sensitive people get when KDR is brought up.

cSand, on 14 April 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Heh,

I've definitely had a few 100-200 damage matches with 3+ kills



MAXIMUM THIEVERY

The technical term is..."Kill Securing"

[Pjwned]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Similarly that is why I say that a KDR of over 1 is good. As long as (on average) you kill more people than you die, you are a positive influence for your team. If you have a KDR of less than one on average, you are more of a liability since you die more often than you earn kills.

Its a rough assumption since there are many other factors to consider (support, scouting, being a distraction, capper, etc...) It is just an approximation.

Kill:death ratio barely means anything because it doesn't take into account any other contributions you've made to the match, including any number of times where you absolutely wreck an enemy mech and then another teammate gets the kill.

Win:loss ratio says a lot more than KDR and even then win:loss still doesn't say enough. The only time KDR matters is when it's absolutely abysmal, like below 0.4 or something, otherwise you're a moron if you take it seriously and the people (like you) who spout that sub 1.0 KDR means being a liability are even bigger morons.

[PappySmurf]

OP I have had friends and family come on and play MWO from time to time over 3 years make new accounts play trials and a starter mech most only get 100-300 damage tops or a kill if there lucky. Then I would take them put them on a account with all mastered mechs and good configurations and BOOM 1-2 kills and 300-600 damage a game.

Truly its the mechs that are OP in there mastered and modules state and regardless of the pilots skills they will get damage and kills. MWO is this un-balanced game in which its pay2win if you buy a hero premium time or buy and master/module 3 mechs with pay2win premium time.

The way MWO is there is no real way to balance the game between Vet Players and New Players unless we had a Stock mech mode where the mechs were all the same and it was player skill that determined battles not modeled/mastered mechs.

P.S I miss the old PC MechWarrior days when battles were determined by team work and player skill and load-outs not OP modules/mastered skilled mechs.

[MechWarrior3671771]

I ignore it for the most part. Damage and kills don't tell the entire story, and don't reward the concept of Combined Arms in any meaningful way. Its a team game, and people who get wrapped around the axle on those stats are the Deon Sanders to your Matt Light (who?)

My best run of damage and kills? In a Raven 3L sitting between the assaults, completely ignored by the enemy while I took "free" shots and stole kills.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Pjwned, on 14 April 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

The only time KDR matters is when it's absolutely abysmal, like below 0.4 or something, otherwise you're a moron if you take it seriously and the people (like you) who spout that sub 1.0 KDR means being a liability are even bigger morons.

That's rather mean and offensive of you. I hope you feel calling me a moron makes feel better and your point stronger.

In all shooters in plays some part. Even you admit that and that's all I'm pointing out. I'll leave out the insults though.

W/L in PUG land isn't telling due to dropping with random people. Even small groups fall prey to the matchmaker sometimes getting paired with teams they can't win against.

Damage done can be misleading because that stat can't tell whether damage is concentrated or sprayed all over the place across multiple mechs.

Really all stats should be taken into account. I mentioned KDR because it can be a quick metric to get an approximation. Like you mentioned, if you see 0.4 KDR, then the person isnt doing as well. It just served SOME purpose didn't it? If it is 0.9 KDR and the person plays Conquest and has a high W/L ratio, then yea, they might be a strong capper or scout.

Again...approximation. Why does this subject cause so much rage that I am insulted for even suggesting it can be a tool. Yikes.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 14 April 2015 - 10:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Similarly that is why I say that a KDR of over 1 is good. As long as (on average) you kill more people than you die, you are a positive influence for your team. If you have a KDR of less than one on average, you are more of a liability since you die more often than you earn kills.

Its a rough assumption since there are many other factors to consider (support, scouting, being a distraction, capper, etc...) It is just an approximation.

Well I also look at the damage I do and assists I have. Cause normally I get left behind or turn the wrong corner. So I die early. So I look to see if I put up good damage, and spread teh pain. If i can HURT the enemy before I die I have helped the team. Sure having 3 kills and and 600 damage is good. But if You are killing 3 players its likely I wounded the player you killed and that sir helps victory.

PappySmurf, on 14 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

OP I have had friends and family come on and play MWO from time to time over 3 years make new accounts play trials and a starter mech most only get 100-300 damage tops or a kill if there lucky. Then I would take them put them on a account with all mastered mechs and good configurations and BOOM 1-2 kills and 300-600 damage a game.

Truly its the mechs that are OP in there mastered and modules state and regardless of the pilots skills they will get damage and kills. MWO is this un-balanced game in which its pay2win if you buy a hero premium time or buy and master/module 3 mechs with pay2win premium time.

The way MWO is there is no real way to balance the game between Vet Players and New Players unless we had a Stock mech mode where the mechs were all the same and it was player skill that determined battles not modeled/mastered mechs.

P.S I miss the old PC MechWarrior days when battles were determined by team work and player skill and load-outs not OP modules/mastered skilled mechs.

But to many others only DON'T want this

[Metus regem]

DaZur, on 14 April 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

A comment I made in a different thread got me to thinking... (Yes, it was quite painful)

Right now forgoing premise is unless one contributes multiple kills and damage in excess of 300+ they were not strong contributors.

Being a American football nut I'm reminded of a quote issued by the great Vince Lombardi: "You never win a game unless you beat the guy in front of you. The score on the board doesn't mean a thing. That's for the fans. You've got to win the war with the man in front of you. You've got to get your man.

In short, I wonder if expectations for a single player to carry more than 1 to 2 kills in a game is setting individual players, particularly new players, up to fail or if not fail to leave them feeling disenfranchised when they are unable to meet these expectations?

Maybe it's just me (which it might be) but I'm okay with a match win or lose so long as I got a single kill... If I do more, I consider myself over-achieving and carrying the weight of a lesser skilled player.

Thoughts?

I'm right with you, but it really depends on the mech I'm using... if my Pirate's Bane is getting stuck in, then I did something wrong. I should be spotting and scouting for my team, providing them with ECM coverage and capping on conuest... thing is, these look bad at the end of the match, when I have a match score of 0 on a loss, but I did a crap ton of work, more than the guys that just went out and blasted away...

What we need is a way to better reward doing the non-direct combat parts of MWO, and we should see, less of the "u r bad" for not getting 1+kills with 800+ damage....

[Scout Derek]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

That's rather mean and offensive of you. I hope you feel calling me a moron makes feel better and your point stronger.

Again...approximation. Why does this subject cause so much rage that I am insulted for even suggesting it can be a tool. Yikes.

I don't know, I got called that too on another topic I commented on. Yesh then I had to go post a ugly and long wall of text, thanks to spoiler though everyone didn't have to read it. People these days...

[Abisha]

always thought having Hugh damage numbers means much.
nope it's the precision you can land your damage with. what matters.
mostly i have only 400 damage but 3 a 4 kills is general normal for me.

[cSand]

PappySmurf, on 14 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Truly its the mechs that are OP in there mastered and modules state and regardless of the pilots skills they will get damage and kills. MWO is this un-balanced game in which its pay2win if you buy a hero premium time or buy and master/module 3 mechs with pay2win premium time.

Lol

First, a sh*te pilot in a masterd out TBR will not do well. He will suck, and die, like everyone else who thinks they can buy skill. And that's 75 wasted tonnes on your team.

It takes maybe 2-3 hours to master basic (FIXED DUE TO EXTREME PANTY BUNCHAGE, PLEASE FORGIVE MY TYPO OH FORUM GODS) a mech, multiply by 3 for a chassis. For free mind you. New players have a bit of a grind but if they don't have time for that then you can pay for it, and it's not even very expensive.

IMO the grind is good for new players. It's like a mandatory bootcamp on how to play. Plus you earn more cbills during your time in the underhive. As you get better, you master chassis faster and it's not a problem later on.

Most heroes are worse variants of their respective chassis. Nothing is pay 2 win here no matter how hard you believe it.

Quote

The way MWO is there is no real way to balance the game between Vet Players and New Players unless we had a Stock mech mode where the mechs were all the same and it was player skill that determined battles not modeled/mastered mechs.

There is no game on earth where vet players are balanced against new players.


Scapegoat on the mechs all you want, your success/failure depends entirely on you and your team.

I actually have to wonder how much you even play this game with this garbage you're spewing

Edited by cSand, 14 April 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[cSand]

Abisha, on 14 April 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

nope it's the precision you can land your damage with. what matters.

amen brotha

[Pjwned]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

That's rather mean and offensive of you. I hope you feel calling me a moron makes feel better and your point stronger.

It gets the point across clearly when people say stupid things.

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In all shooters in plays some part. Even you admit that and that's all I'm pointing out. I'll leave out the insults though.

It plays a small part, sure, but not to the extent that having <1.0 KDR necessarily means being a liability because that is complete nonsense; that is the issue I have with your first post.

Quote

W/L in PUG land isn't telling due to dropping with random people. Even small groups fall prey to the matchmaker sometimes getting paired with teams they can't win against.

It's more telling than KDR, that's for damn sure, but I did say that win:loss still doesn't really say enough because you're right about PUG drops.

Quote

Damage done can be misleading because that stat can't tell whether damage is concentrated or sprayed all over the place across multiple mechs.

True, though when you start seeing 500-600+ damage it's still an indicator that somebody is doing at least something right, such as surviving long enough to deal that kind of damage.

Quote

Really all stats should be taken into account. I mentioned KDR because it can be a quick metric to get an approximation. Like you mentioned, if you see 0.4 KDR, then the person isnt doing as well. It just served SOME purpose didn't it? If it is 0.9 KDR and the person plays Conquest and has a high W/L ratio, then yea, they might be a strong capper or scout.

I would say that statement is still too vague and still seems to place too much importance on KDR being much of a worthwhile stat when it's really not, but close enough.

Quote

Again...approximation. Why does this subject cause so much rage that I am insulted for even suggesting it can be a tool. Yikes.

It's fine if you say it can be used as an approximation, it's not fine when you radically overestimate its value or claim that people with <1.0 KDR are a liability because that's stupid.