24 replies to this topic

[Utilyan]

I was curious on another thread "autocannons". I'm not a TT-lawyer or a mathematician, but I know some of you guys are.

A round in TT from what I read here is 10 seconds.

So I'm thinking a AC/10 does 10 damage in one round, which is 10 seconds.

I take out a centurion shoot my ac/10 for ten seconds, it shoots 4 shots in ten seconds(no stop watch the 4th shot was right on the line). My calc is not exact but maybe you guys pick up on the gist of my post.


So does this mean the ac/10 ought first be nerf to 1/4th its damage per shot and the ammo should be 4 times greater?

1 ton of ac/10 ammo should be 60 ammo.

THE current ac/10 appears to be a AC/40.


what do you guys think? Maybe the machine guns are perfect

This might veer off from other mechwarrior games but might be a step closer to TT.

Again i'm not a tt lawyer or mathematician. Go easy on me if i'm captain obvious.

[Xenosphobatic]

TT rules don't always work in real time. That's why heat was tripled, armor was doubled, etc, etc, etc.

[Orzorn]

Xenosphobatic, on 21 February 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

TT rules don't always work in real time. That's why heat was tripled, armor was doubled, etc, etc, etc.

Actually, they would have worked if they would have taken whatever fire time they wanted for them, then divided their TT damage by it and made that their damage-per-shot.

They didn't do that, so they had to double armor, and then we also ran into the heating issues because we still had TT dissipation rates but we had non-TT fire rates.

But, no, OP, we're too deep into it now to do any of that. This was a decision that was made too long ago to go back on now.

[Viper69]

Amazing how well they worked in mech4 with tt heat and weapon values. Although they didnt have double heat sinks and you didnt have to place heatsinks so if you saved tonnage you could do a lot of broken boating by putting a lot o heat sinks.

Edited by Viper69, 21 February 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Rakashan]

The suggestion you make is a valid one but is not the choice that PGI made when designing.

The scaling for the weapons does *not* adjust DPS. It retains the alpha capability and scales weapons based on heat generation and recycle times.

[Redshift2k5]

This is not "Battletech" Online. This is Mechwarrior Online. Many things have to be changed to make BT, a turn-based combat game, into a live action game... different games have handled it differently, but this is the system we have, for better or for worse.

[MustrumRidcully]

Redshift2k5, on 21 February 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

This is not "Battletech" Online. This is Mechwarrior Online. Many things have to be changed to make BT, a turn-based combat game, into a live action game... different games have handled it differently, but this is the system we have, for better or for worse.

Redshift2k5, on 21 February 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

This is not "Battletech" Online. This is Mechwarrior Online. Many things have to be changed to make BT, a turn-based combat game, into a live action game... different games have handled it differently, but this is the system we have, for better or for worse.

PGI doubled armour. OP points out - to work with their fire rates, they should have halved damage and heat if the double the rate of fire.

Notice what PGI is doing lately? Lowering the heat of weapons.

See why maybe the OP has more of a point?

If you really want to engage well reasoned in this discussion, and not just bring some platitutes about real time vs turn based, what you could bring up is, for example,m that MW:O doesn't have a real heat scale with increasing, cumulative penalties, which might neccessitate some further changes.

You could also point out that MW:O eschews random hit locations with (mouse use) skill based aiming. But then you could also point out that doubling armour does not honestly address this, as a major change here is how often certain hit locations are aimed and hit at, which alters the entire base of how armour would need to be distributed, not just the absolute number.

Ther eis a conversion process between table top turn based RNG and real time 3D mouse aiming. But it's still a process, it's not an unsurmountable wall and only a miracle can get you from one side to the other side.

[Bilbo]

Orzorn, on 21 February 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Actually, they would have worked if they would have taken whatever fire time they wanted for them, then divided their TT damage by it and made that their damage-per-shot.

They didn't do that, so they had to double armor, and then we also ran into the heating issues because we still had TT dissipation rates but we had non-TT fire rates.

But, no, OP, we're too deep into it now to do any of that. This was a decision that was made too long ago to go back on now.

^ This.

[Khobai]

Quote

PGI doubled armour. OP points out - to work with their fire rates, they should have halved damage and heat if the double the rate of fire.

Yeah but theres also the problem of aiming vs random hit locations.

Armor values in tabletop are based on random hit locations. So those armor values should NOT be used in MWO which is based on aiming. MWO needs its own armor values based on stats collected by PGI on how often each location gets hit. Center torso needs WAY more armor if theyre going to allow someone to pinpoint 40 damage into your center torso with 4 ppcs. Tabletop armor values arnt built to handle that.

Edited by Khobai, 21 February 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[verybad]

Orzorn, on 21 February 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Actually, they would have worked if they would have taken whatever fire time they wanted for them, then divided their TT damage by it and made that their damage-per-shot.

They didn't do that, so they had to double armor, and then we also ran into the heating issues because we still had TT dissipation rates but we had non-TT fire rates.

But, no, OP, we're too deep into it now to do any of that. This was a decision that was made too long ago to go back on now.

and not allowed people to aim.

I'm furious, because the weapons don't sound like they do in this game. They all sound like dice rolling in real life!!!!


TT rules are not balanced even for TT, you've got to use the BV system to even sort of balance that game, and those rules also wouldn't work in real time. It's jackassery to even think they would.

[Orzorn]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Yeah but theres also the problem of aiming vs random hit locations.

Armor values in tabletop are based on random hit locations. So those armor values should NOT be used in MWO which is based on aiming. MWO needs its own armor values based on stats collected by PGI on how often each location gets hit. Center torso needs WAY more armor if theyre going to allow someone to pinpoint 40 damage into your center torso with 4 ppcs. Tabletop armor values arnt built to handle that.

Well, they could have always doubled armor and still did the fire rate vs damage vs heat division so that we basically had the same weapon damage in 10 seconds. We'd still have needed an ammo increase to make up for that (we'd be firing 3 times the rounds for the same amount of damage). Also, doubled armor with 10 second-based damage would make games last...quite a while.

At the very least, it would have prevented many of the heat related issues we've seen with having to balance all the weapon's heat. Not saying we wouldn't have had some of those, but it would have helped a lot.

AC/2 would have still have been garbage with converted stats, for instance. It was always bleh against mechs in the TT.

I think I'd still like to see some sort of high-heat penalties in MWO. Riding the heat curve forever is part of what makes balancing certain weapons so difficult.

verybad, on 21 February 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

and not allowed people to aim.

I'm furious, because the weapons don't sound like they do in this game. They all sound like dice rolling in real life!!!!

You sound pretty upset. You might want to take a break.

Edited by Orzorn, 21 February 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Khobai]

The problem is pinpointing 40 damage in a single location is highly unbalancing. And its only going to get worse with CERPPCs.

Theyre going to have to lower fire rate on those pinpoint weapons to balance them.

[Xigunder Blue]

Well, as a retired game designer I can tell you that none of the mathematics or 'canon' stuff means a darn thing unless you put the fun factor first. Make this a one shot kill game (Hawken) or drag it out for 30 min matches. Both are 'niche' type games for a restricted audience types - Fast and Furious players for the first and RTS for the second. Caps alone are in for those players who are less able to handle the hand-eye co-ordination. Want them out? Bye Bye revenue to keep the game alive. Their (our) money is just as important as yours. The money for MC is equal whoever spends it.

Either make the game for the good players or you leave? "shrug". We Regular/Fair/Poor players outnumber you elites (as elites so eloquently state so often) by far. Do the math. DLTDHYOTWO.

[Orzorn]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

The problem is pinpointing 40 damage in a single location is highly unbalancing. And its only going to get worse with CERPPCs.

Theyre going to have to lower fire rate on those pinpoint weapons to balance them.

It seems convergence was their attempt at fixing it, but convergence is just annoying if it takes too long. Convergence also starts to fly out the window with mechs like the K2 with weapon hardpoints being so close to the center.

Still, it comes into play on enough mechs to make it a notable system.

Edited by Orzorn, 21 February 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It seems convergence was their attempt at fixing it, but convergence is just annoying if it takes too long.

Yeah. Convergence is a neat idea for weapons like lasers that have a beam duration. But im not sure it would work for PPCs and Gauss. The big problem now is the mechs with like 2-4 PPCs/Gauss that can just core you in one or two shots. And they dont really have any weaknesses like SRM6 cats which are limited to 270m range.

[Mackman]

Orzorn, on 21 February 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Well, they could have always doubled armor and still did the fire rate vs damage vs heat division so that we basically had the same weapon damage in 10 seconds. We'd still have needed an ammo increase to make up for that (we'd be firing 3 times the rounds for the same amount of damage). Also, doubled armor with 10 second-based damage would make games last...quite a while.

At the very least, it would have prevented many of the heat related issues we've seen with having to balance all the weapon's heat. Not saying we wouldn't have had some of those, but it would have helped a lot.

AC/2 would have still have been garbage with converted stats, for instance. It was always bleh against mechs in the TT.

I think I'd still like to see some sort of high-heat penalties in MWO. Riding the heat curve forever is part of what makes balancing certain weapons so difficult.

In a game like MWO, DPS (damage per second) is one of the most important stats in the game. And since you have to aim, being able to place that damage is also extremely important.

In your proposed system, an AC/5 would only do 5 damage every ten seconds, divided into who knows how many shots: We'll say 5 (thus turning it into the worst weapon in the game). An AC/10 only does 10 damage every ten seconds, divided into 3-4 shots. Meanwhile, an AC/20 still does a whopping 20 damage every ten seconds, divided into only two shots apiece.

Do you see the problem? Not only is the straight DPS much, much higher for an AC/20, but due to the much lower number of shots needed to deal that damage, it's also much, much easier to put all of that damage on the target. It would be absolutely pointless to use the small weapons if you could afford at all to put in a larger one, because they would be better in every conceivable way. They would deal more damage more consistently all the time.

As it is now, we only have half of that situation. It's easier to deal 20 damage with an AC/20 round than it is with an AC/5 or AC/10, but due to their much fast fire rate, they can keep up in damage.

Edited by Mackman, 21 February 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[verybad]

Orzorn, on 21 February 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

You sound pretty upset. You might want to take a break.

? I'm drinking coffee eating a donut and bsing on a gameforum before I go to work. I think you got the wrong impression...

[Mechteric]

The numbers you really need to know in MWO vs. TT are the DPS and HPS along with the damage and heat per projectile. You can find them in many places, I get my stats from smurfy's site.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_ballistic


Also keep in mind that armor is doubled per ton compared with TT.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 21 February 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Like the girl from the Poltergeist movie screamed...

THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING!

[verybad]

MaddMaxx, on 21 February 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Like the girl from the Poltergeist movie screamed...

THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING!

It's like groundhog day ehh?