135 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

There is no downside to running ECM, its all positive. ECM doesn't generate heat. ECM doesn't have a slot where it has to go (arm or torso) so you don't have point to aim at on the mech to disable ECM. Most of the mechs with an ECM tend to be in the better chassis of the family as well. Now factor in putting in a weapon system that can effectively prevent weapon lock AE, you have problems.

ECM combines three electronic warfare systems but takes up 2 slots and 1 1/2 tons:
-Gaurdian ECM
-Angel ECM
-Null-signature system

So lets assume that ECM as it works now will never change. How does Piranha gets ECM to a state where everyone can tolerate their implementation?

Any one or combination of the following fixes ECM w/o changing ECM's effects:
-Increase the slots to 3. ECM now can only be placed in a Torso or Arm slot.
-Implement an ECM only slot and place it in the Arms (you now have a target to aim at to counter ECM)
-Increase the weight of ECM from 1 1/2 tons to 3 tons. (Light mechs would take the hit here, and it COULD mean that other chassis of the same type would at least have more firepower than their ECM brethren)
-Put in an engine tax for mechs running ECM, max engine size is 80% of normal for the build when using ECM (All mechs with ECM would move slower and be an easier target on the battlefield).


Following any of the changes above directly impacts the longevity of the ECM system on the battlefield. It would also change how mechs play with ECM. Instead of ECM carriers running around like Rambo, they would have an incentive to use cover and let their team mates eat up the brunt of the damage before committing to an engagement. Can you imagine an anti-radar truck deliberately running head on into a tank charge? In MWO that happens ever 10 seconds.

Edited by Rhent, 21 February 2013 - 08:18 AM.

[DocBach]

Couple ideas:

Quote

Limit ECM's base ability to blocking Beagle, Narc, Artemis, target sharing, allow every Mech to use ECM

Allow expanded functionality through multi-tiered modules that cost GXP like the modules they've added to counter it. Make counter a module - limits the function of ECM as 'Mech will have to decide what modules they want to take, some 'Mechs with more module slots will be better at ECM capabilities, or might forgo all the ECM modules for other modules. Ensure ECM must be installed on the chassis for modules to function.

Quote

Other idea:

Add a third mode to ECM based off of the Ghost Target feature ECM is suppose to have. Take away any sort of missile defeating properties ECM has in disrupt and put them into Ghost Target mode.

Disrupt will now:

Prevent targeting information, but not targeting itself. If you can see it, you can lock on to it, you just don't receive information on chassis, damage, loadout, ect.

Block Beagle, Narc, Artemis, target sharing through the bubble

Ghost Target will:

Add additional lock on time to targets

Add false radar signatures to targets to confuse to enemy and make them cycle through spam to find the target they actually want. Ghost targets will appear like targets shrouded by Disrupt, so they'll have a designator, but no information. Beagle Active Probe will detect false Ghost Targets as being invalid.

Counter will:

Counter Disrupt or Ghost Target mode.

ECM can only be used in one mode at a time.

If anybody wants, I can post rules, quotations and page numbers to show where this would be a very faithful translation of ECM from the source material, so they don't think I'm just pulling stuff from my rear end.

There -- ECM is balanced, adds additional features and abilities, still has a mode to counter against missiles (just doesn't completely defeat them) and is soft countered by Beagle. Was that hard?

Edited by DocBach, 21 February 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

No, to everything.

[Mechteric]

I'd just like to be able to still see friendly mechs via IFF when under enemy ECM, and also be able to at least target an enemy within a more reasonable distance even if I can't get a lock with missiles or see it on my radar display. Just to remove some of the confusion while still keeping its ability to deny lock on weapons and hide presence on the radar display would be plenty.

[Joseph Mallan]

Why? That's the list of things ECM does and some ways ECM could be improved. Or should we just shoot the ears off?

[Grraarrgghh]

DocBach, on 21 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Love your always pleasant, logical and constructive contributions to everything, Vassago.

Why bother addressing your points when you're calling to nerf something that's already balanced?

[Vassago Rain]

DocBach, on 21 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Love your always pleasant, logical and constructive contributions to everything, Vassago.

Have you ever been diagnosed with a personality disorder?

No. Have you? Why are you so mad? More importantly, why do you feel I should waste my time responding to obsessive whine posts about an item that's already balanced to the point where all new tech items fit nicely around it, like a puzzle?

It's like the goon above me says.

[Harrison Kelly]

Grraarrgghh, on 21 February 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Why bother addressing your points when you're calling to nerf something that's already balanced?

The fact that an item is considered mandatory on all builds that can possibly equip it implies that it is not balanced. Must-have items are not good for this game.

You can't say that about virtually any other item across multiple platforms. The only thing I can think of that's close to being a "Bring THIS on THIS mech" is the SRM 6 and the Catapult A1, because nothing else is good on it due to . . . wait for it . . . ECM.

Also, everyone's better off ignoring posts that present nothing useful to the discussion. Friendly reminder not to feed the trolls who only post to aggravate and detract from the conversation instead of contributing a well-reasoned argument.

Edited by Harrison Kelly, 21 February 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[DocBach]

Vassago Rain, on 21 February 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

No. Have you? Why are you so mad? More importantly, why do you feel I should waste my time responding to obsessive whine posts about an item that's already balanced to the point where all new tech items fit nicely around it, like a puzzle?

It's like the goon above me says.

You've posted twice in this thread already. Why did you waste your time, which must be in such short supply seeing as you've only had time to post 7250 posts?

You are the puzzle to me. Everything is perfectly balanced, because everything fits around ECM? Why haven't you understood that the majority of the players who play this game don't want ECMWO?

You'll reply with some asinine comment how a poll with 1,000 players sampled isn't scientific and means nothing to you and some more grandiose narcissistic crap, whatever.

[Khobai]

Better idea.

1) balance missiles
2) change ecm so it has no effect on missiles.

Quote

Why bother addressing your points when you're calling to nerf something that's already balanced?

Whether its balanced or not is completely irrelevant. In every poll conducted so far, the overwhelming majority of players have said they don't like the way ECM currently works. That is the only reason required to change it.

Edited by Khobai, 21 February 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I thought the Devs made it fairly clear...they're going to continue to add things to balance the ECM game. I might be mistaken on that, but generally my impression was that rather than make ECM costlier (in weight, heat generation, slots etc) they would add counters to it over time. Possibly in an effort to make other Mechs considered "less than optimal" have a new role....like some sort of counter-ECM device, that only a Jenner Variant and some other non-ECM Mechs could have as an example.

Overall, ECM is manageable and as they add more EW facets, the game will just get more interesting imo.

p.s. you guys do know there's an ignore feature on the forums if you really don't feel like you can discuss things with certain people or don't want to entertain their arguments, reasonable or not. But it's a slippery slope

Edited by Lukoi, 21 February 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[Zaptruder]

1. Run ECM.
2. Win matches.
3. Elo goes up.
4. Keep running ECM.
5. Eventually find opposition that knows how to deal with your ECM usage.

Balanced.

[danust]

Large maps cure so very many things. They added the PPC/EMP interrupt and it nears perfection. You® (team) can fire a PPC and get a missile lock on a D-DC now. I have done it.

3L is still a bit of an abomination but lag God is gone. And there are things you just have to deal with-like killing Ravens. They taste delicious.

More big maps please.

[Grraarrgghh]

Harrison Kelly, on 21 February 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

The fact that an item is considered mandatory on all builds that can possibly equip it implies that it is not balanced. Must-have items are not good for this game.

You can't say that about virtually any other item across multiple platforms. The only thing I can think of that's close to being a "Bring THIS on THIS mech" is the SRM 6 and the Catapult A1, because nothing else is good on it due to . . . wait for it . . . ECM.

Also, everyone's better off ignoring posts that present nothing useful to the discussion. Friendly reminder not to feed the trolls who only post to aggravate and detract from the conversation instead of contributing a well-reasoned argument.

Sounds like scrub reasoning to me.

[DocBach]

Vassago Rain, on 21 February 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

I like your tears, and when I see gold, I always counter-post. It brings more tears, and more nonsense.

Like seriously dude, how do you not realize the nonsense is all coming from you? I'm scared to know how you function in the real world, with your creepy serial killer logic.

Edited by DocBach, 21 February 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Better idea.

1) balance missiles
2) change ecm so it has no effect on missiles.

Whether its balanced or not is completely irrelevant. In every poll conducted so far, the overwhelming majority of players have said they don't like the way ECM currently works. That is the only reason required to change it.

That was the realm of Angel ECM, not Guardian! As I always read it, ECM worked against "advanced" targeting devices.

[Vassago Rain]

Grraarrgghh, on 21 February 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Sounds like scrub reasoning to me.

Because they are scrubs, mister goon.

[Sug]

DocBach, on 21 February 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Prevent targeting information, but not targeting itself. If you can see it, you can lock on to it, you just don't receive information on chassis, damage, loadout, ect.

Something like this. The anti lockon bubble from ecm is too strong. Preventing lockons within 180m, sure, but I liked the ECM from mechcommander best where all it does is reduce the sensor range of enemy mechs.

I'd also like to see NARC buffed by allowing it to bypass all forms of ECM. NARC has too many limitations for what it does.

[Sug]

Leedair, on 21 February 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

You® (team) can fire a PPC and get a missile lock on a D-DC now.

3L is still a bit of an abomination but lag God is gone.

Yeah a big slow target with ecm out in the open is no longer a problem. Ravens and other lights will be fixed once collisions are brought back in.

Seriously the ability to knock a Raven over on it's *** will make that mech completely unplayable for 90% of the people that use it now.

[Xenosphobatic]

Wait, I thought we were done QQing about ECM and were now QQing about ELO.

Man, I'm always a step behind.