34 replies to this topic

[gregsolidus]

I never understood what they were supposed to do.

[Glare]

Protomechs were supposed to be cheaper, more cost-effective and more cumulatively combat effective than BattleMechs. A point of Protos is approximately half of the cost of a Clan OmniMech, yet usually more effective, able to cover more ground, able to soak up more losses before becoming combat ineffective, etc.

[gregsolidus]

Oh,that does sound pretty useful.

[Captain Nice HD]

I prefer Ultra-Light BattleMechs, honestly.

[AcesHigh]

Elementals, yes. Protomechs, No.

M.H.O.

[DFDelta]

While I do not resent the concept of Protomechs, and even like their loadouts and combat doctrine on paper, I must say that they are the ugliest and most revolting looking thing that have ever disgraced the face of Battletech.

So I give them an absolute: DO. NOT. WANT

[Rhinehart]

I always thought both elementals and Protomechs were beyond anything else marketting gimmicks to try to generate more interest in battletech/mechwarrior sales, especially of miniatures. Or perhaps niche devices catering to a minority interest group among whomever was in charge of projects at the time. Of the two I thought Elementals made more sense, especially in the concept of boardining actions in spacecraft or infantry actions in areas too small for mechs. I agree that they had a tremendous effectiveness against Inner Sphere 3025 era mechs but that this effectivness seemed very mech nullified when they began facing more advanced mechs/weapons and especially those designed as elemental killers.
I have piloted elemental and powered infantry in MW 3 and 4 and while battlesuits might seem good on paper in any kind of realistic sim they seem to lose out unless they have overwhelmingly superior numbers.

As far as protomechs are concerned this seemed to me like battlearmor mark II, and also an excuse to make another Tech Report to sell on the bookshelves. It did however seem to fit in with Clan Smoke Jaguar's desperate need to find some way to defeat the Inner Sphere invasion. It is worth noting that the implants requiered to pilot protomechs were supposed to drive their operators violently insane in a relatively short period of time. Admittedly Clan Philosophy would not bar this as warriors are supposed to test out, earn bloodnames and a genetic legacy and die in glorious battle in a rather short period verses the career of the Inner Sphere Mechwarrior. But it probably wouldn't be practical in an MMO environment unless they removed that hindrance, which in my mind makes protomechs far too advantageous.

In short, while they are canonical I consider them mostly unneeded fluff.

Edited by Rhinehart, 07 November 2011 - 08:05 PM.

[Glare]

Dude, Elementals are not the only kind of BattleArmor, or even the most common. Almost all of them have excellent uses in the table top, whether it's spotting for artillery units, massacring infantry you don't want to detach 'Mechs for, or ripping the legs off of said 'Mechs with an ambush. The Elemental in particular has been around since the very beginning of the Clan Invasion, over thirty years of real-life time.

Protomechs are, granted, less revolutionary and more of a niche item, but it's hardly a marketing gimmick.

[wolf on the tide]

minobu tetsuharu, on 06 November 2011 - 06:16 AM, said:

This is going to be years away before we officially see them but after Operation Bulldog Protomechs are going to be introduced.

do you have a source for this, if so pls link

For those who don't know Protomechs are mechs less than 10 tons that are meant to be grossly cost effective.


(These overall factors gives us mechs with far greater feats of agility than battlemechs. A protomech has limited bullet timing skills and can actively dodge incoming shots a battlemech can not under no circumstances could do.
Things get a little more absurd because protomech pilots don't work alone. Up to five protomech pilots are integrated in communication network where the pilots share vision with each other. In universe this is done because the neural skin is damaging and the act of piloting a protomech makes a person feel godlike and they need to be tightly integrated into a team to maintain perspective that they aren't gods and to minimize insanity
They have the firepower of assault battle armor. They lack the means to go into all the place battle armor can but the are vastly better at coming close to battle armor capabilities while having better mobility and agility than battlemechs.)

<cut down a bit, sorry>

...i started playing MMO's back in 2000-2001.
Re-read the text above and how long does it take for the back of your mind to start /screaming "GAME KILLING ALPHA CLASS" ? 10? possibly 15 seconds?


It would be interesting to see if the devs stick to canon such that in a match for every battlemech you could deploy you have the option of deploying 5 protoemechs instead. This would allow larger clans to play together as a group which is cool but I wonder how that would impact the usefulness of recon specialist mechs.

Canon, as in canon lore? i can't recall clearly, but i thought protomechs came in about 3066, which would possibly be when wizards on the coast owned the rights and "added" to the game. so would these be "old skool" FASA B/tech and mechwarrior, canon?
or WotC added gloss added at a time when the board game was being re-marketed and "up-dated" due to the success of the console based video games, canon?

i suppose it's all a matter of perspective.

Overall I'm looking forward to protos but there are good reasons to be concerned about how they fit into a game.

if we use the 5 to 1 protomech canon... worst case scenario, you and 11 friends log into a company match, you find yourself facing 60 protomechs. the match takes 3 combat round to resolve,..3 phases of the match being
1) movement,
2) movement and fire,( 3 round)
3) fire at the survivors and move on

how this works, proto's would cover a huge chunk of map in a few rounds and open up, (lets assume they rush)...add a few rounds if they decide to hide and ambush

60 V 12 ... each mech gets shot by 5 protos... all aiming at him...lights and mediums won't take that punishment , big heavy's (70 ton? ) might get lucky and not blow up, assault mechs will be damaged (speculation, the assault boys will reverse up, jam into each other and bottleneck so the protos have a battleship sized target(s), and invariably some of the assaults will suffer "friendly fire"

...the mech can only fire at 1? 2? if you use the old secondary target rules setup. result kill 1 , miss the second
by now you're running numbers.. how many lost on each side? assuming each mech kills 1 protomech a round (mutual kills ???) , but loses half his force thats 48 protos V 6 mechs.
next round (6 to 1 odds) .
42 proto's to 3 mechs (14 to 1) the round after that...by which point you now have effectively triple the odds you started against,
so the protos will statistically lose 1 more man, while the last 3 mechs get blown away...and the protos move off

Have fun speculating.

thank you sir, i have

[The1WithTheGun]

Well if game day = real world day, then we won't have to worry about Protos for a real long time - if at all.

Don't see anything wrong with them as a unit (just treat them as ultra-heavy battlemor or ultra-light mechs). though it would be interesting to see how they coudl be implemented..

[UncleKulikov]

Maybe as NPC reinforcements.

[wolf on the tide]

Rhinehart, on 07 November 2011 - 08:04 PM, said:

I always thought both elementals and Protomechs were beyond anything else marketting gimmicks to try to generate more interest in battletech/mechwarrior sales, especially of miniatures. Or perhaps niche devices catering to a minority interest group among whomever was in charge of projects at the time. Of the two I thought Elementals made more sense, especially in the concept of boardining actions in spacecraft or infantry actions in areas too small for mechs. I agree that they had a tremendous effectiveness against Inner Sphere 3025 era mechs but that this effectivness seemed very mech nullified when they began facing more advanced mechs/weapons and especially those designed as elemental killers.
I have piloted elemental and powered infantry in MW 3 and 4 and while battlesuits might seem good on paper in any kind of realistic sim they seem to lose out unless they have overwhelmingly superior numbers.

As far as protomechs are concerned this seemed to me like battlearmor mark II, and also an excuse to make another Tech Report to sell on the bookshelves. It did however seem to fit in with Clan Smoke Jaguar's desperate need to find some way to defeat the Inner Sphere invasion. It is worth noting that the implants requiered to pilot protomechs were supposed to drive their operators violently insane in a relatively short period of time. Admittedly Clan Philosophy would not bar this as warriors are supposed to test out, earn bloodnames and a genetic legacy and die in glorious battle in a rather short period verses the career of the Inner Sphere Mechwarrior. But it probably wouldn't be practical in an MMO environment unless they removed that hindrance, which in my mind makes protomechs far too advantageous.

In short, while they are canonical I consider them mostly unneeded fluff.

i always saw elementals as a kind of trade off, as lowly freeborn things like tanks and infantry are below the honour of the clans, therefore they filled a role within the game.an offshoot of armoured infantry i guess ( i enjoyed using them.. at trinary level in a campaign setting, it was worth refitting one mech (pilot : probably a bondsman) to act in the refit and repair role, by replacing weapons with repair bay tonnage)

they did have them in one of the console titles as a side mission, and you got to run about in the elemental suit and fight mech's, if i recall

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Captain Nice HD, on 07 November 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

I prefer Ultra-Light BattleMechs, honestly.

All that ultra-lights got above protos is that they're usually faster.
Faster, but more fragile with usually less firepower.
By the time of the wobbie jihad, you've got ultra protos (10-15 tons), that definitely pack enough firepower per point to be competitive on a point-per-point basis with assault 'mechs.
Throw in those protos with WiGE movement, and you've got tons of fun.
Like this one:

14 tons, 1/1MP (4/6 WiGE), 23 points of armour on the torso (65 points total), 2 medium chemical lasers, Streak SRM-6, and a machine gun.

A canon 15-ton ultra-heavy proto moves 3/5/5, and has four LRM-5 launchers with 12 shots each.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 08 November 2011 - 06:40 AM.

[Captain Nice HD]

I am well aware of the comparative failings of Ultra-Lights next to ProtoMechs. I also know of a few munchy workarounds.

[Nill Zenath]

I tend to think Protomechs, elementals, vehicles, and aircraft are units that are either scenario driven or where they are used as one more way to balance disparaging lance tonnage before a game starts. Like if your lance is all medium mechs going up against a lance of assault mechs a number of these units could spawn to balance the battle.