36 replies to this topic

[Yeach]

We've heard that armor and engines are upgradable.
However we do not know if different types of armor, internal structures and engines can be swapped.

Swapping any of these items CHANGES the entire internal structure of the mech; specficially that ferro-fibrous, endo-steel and XL engines take up more internal critical spaces.

For the XL engine, it takes 3 more assigned critical space in both the right and left torso.

Some conflicts might arise if the standard engine is allowed to be swapped for an XL engine.
For example the standard Hunchback has a standard engine and an AC20 that takes 10 criticals in the right torso; if you were allowed to swap to an XL engine; you won't be able to place that AC-20 in the right torso (also assuming you can't split the AC20).
3 crits + 10 crits = 13 crits > 12 crits for a side torso
Does the AC20 then get booted out for not being of the correct size. (possibility of bugging)
Allowing the engine to be swapped for an XL engine changes the dynamic of its ballistic hardpoint.

If you were allowed to swap to ferro-fibrous and endo-steel, the criticals should be assigned PRIOR to adding weapons as to in my mind placing the critical space AFTER the weapons are assigned is more min-maxing than I would like.

Take the early mechlab example where they replaced the large lasers on the McMech with two medium lasers.
http://mwomercs.com/...-blog-6-mechlab
If an endo-steel critical space was allowed to be freely moved (and you had the tonnage), you could put a PPC into that area; this changes the dynamic of the hardpoint in my opinion.

So in conclusion my opinion is that mechs should not be able to swap standard armor, internals or engine for endo-steel, ferro-fibrous or XL engines (and vice versa) freely because of the mess assigning criticals will take.
The solution of course is to take the variant with the armor, internal and engine you like where ALL the critical space has already been assigned and then upgrade (or downgrade) from there. No swapping between the armor, internals or engine.

[ManDaisy]

I am for all swapping with exception of internals. If we think about cars, engines swaps seem a no brainer, even if you have to rip the frame up a bit you can make room if needed. You can also change the paneling and exterior any way you want, which would be much like changing the armor type/ thickness. However, changing only the frame is like building a car from the bottom up. I don't see a way to exchange the internal structure, essentially the frame, without having to mess with everything else. So I am for swapping to everything else, just not endo internals.

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 May 2012 - 07:36 PM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

basically yes, but not just right from the start, we should be forced to stick with standard-tech for a while...and for the internal structure, it´s possible by the rules, so it should be possible here, but be very hard to do and expensive (if that doesn´t mean only ppl with big wallets can do it...) but as i say, basically, yes...

[Redshift2k5]

Those heavy modifications need to be expensive, and ideally not available for cash/MC purchases (except variants where those mods are stock), but only with C-bills we'll need to earn.

As for criticals and overlap, in the mechlab videos and screenshots, we can clearly see it is looking at hardpoints, critical, and weight, and color-coding which weapons may or may not be currently slotted in based on the available space/weight. Obviously swapping in an XL engine will check for available critical space and if there isn't space it would simply be red and non-insertable until space is made available.

[MaddMaxx]

In the case of the Hunchie, I would see that as a conscious decision by the Pilot doing the upgrade/downgrade knowing it removes the AC20, the Stock weapon on that chassis.

As for how expensive it might be, if everyone is allowed then making it overly expensive just delays things for some but not for others. It should be minimal or free. As noted, the cost is quasi built in via the space/crits consumed, with some benefits (weight saved) vs the loss of other things. The AC20 in this case.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 29 May 2012 - 08:25 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

ManDaisy, on 28 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

I am for all swapping with exception of internals. If we think about cars, engines swaps seem a no brainer, even if you have to rip the frame up a bit you can make room if needed. You can also change the paneling and exterior any way you want, which would be much like changing the armor type/ thickness. However, changing only the frame is like building a car from the bottom up. I don't see a way to exchange the internal structure, essentially the frame, without having to mess with everything else. So I am for swapping to everything else, just not endo internals.

Pretty much this.

Rather than cars, though, I believe aircraft would make a somewhat better example - one can change the engine and replace paneling easily enough, but attempting to modify - or completely replace - the airframe introduces a slew of new issues related to registration and airworthiness.

Also, being able to swap out everything brings about a "Ship of Theseus" situation - at what point can one no longer say that what they've got is no longer the original BattleMech/variant?

Not allowing modification of the internal structure (from standard to Endo-Steel, or vice versa) also rationalizes why the hardpoints of any given 'Mech variant are (presumably) fixed and immutable...

[canned wolf]

Internals wouldn't be swapped so much as modified. Lightweight reinforcements mixed with lightening of the structure (drilling big holes), is how it's accomplished now. I would suspect the method for mechs would be similar. I would also expect it to be rediculously expensive, and likely irreversable.

I've never been for craming the extra crits wherever they fit though. I think they should take up specific crits all over the mech. This would conflict with a bunch of mech designs though, so I'll happily accept whatever we get.

[Hollister]

What I would like to see is a cooldown for frame and engine swaps per chassis. So someone even if they have all the Cbills they could ever want. Just can not switch back and forth all the time between different frames or engines. A one week cooldown for swaps would make people put a little more thought into what they are doing.

[John Clavell]

I'd 'like' to see it possible to swap everything out. But, we will have to see how it pans out. I can imagine say Endo Steel being available depending on the variant of the Mech.

[Adrienne Vorton]

John Clavell, on 30 May 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

I'd 'like' to see it possible to swap everything out. But, we will have to see how it pans out. I can imagine say Endo Steel being available depending on the variant of the Mech.

brings me to following idea: deciding at purchase (of a variant), not to be changed later?

[John Clavell]

Adrienne Vorton, on 30 May 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

brings me to following idea: deciding at purchase (of a variant), not to be changed later?

That's certainly a possibility. Though, considering my understanding of how Battlemech Production works within lore remit, and such in real life on mass production runs, and considering how hard and expensive it is to make Endo Steel it should be very expensive indeed to use Endo Steel. I'd love to see the ability to retro fit Standard, but again it should be darn expensive.

[MaddMaxx]

Swapping back and forth should not be an issue. It is known that we can "Save" the MechLab changes.

P.S. I thought Endo-Steel was a chassis building material, not something you just spliced on to a chassis willy nilly?

[Yeach]

XL/ Standard engines are less of an issue for me but it only reinforces the weakness of the AC20 which cannot be combine with the XL engine due to criticalspace..
If you are a brawler ideally you want to go faster (XL engine) to get to your target but you aren't able to if you want to mount your big gun (AC20) in the most secure/armored place (side torso).
Notice how most Hunchback and its variants use only the standard engine.

Yeach, on 28 May 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

If you were allowed to swap to ferro-fibrous and endo-steel, the criticals should be assigned PRIOR to adding weapons as to in my mind placing the critical space AFTER the weapons are assigned is more min-maxing than I would like.

Take the early mechlab example where they replaced the large lasers on the McMech with two medium lasers.
http://mwomercs.com/...-blog-6-mechlab
If an endo-steel critical space was allowed to be freely moved (and you had the tonnage), you could put a PPC into that area; this changes the dynamic of the hardpoint in my opinion.

Gigaton, on 20 April 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Except with large caliber ballistic boats, crits are not a problem whatsoever with 3025 tech, only hardpoints are. With lostech, the unarmoured arm and side torso can serve as crit dump for endo-steel and ferro fibrous crits, meaning you won't lose any effective crit space at all for using one of those.

From this http://mwomercs.com/...638#entry210638

My second issue is the issue of is if we will have floating criticals space with ferro and endo-steel.
It encourages questionable IMO min/maxing as indicated above; placing endo/ferro into an unimportant spot likely without a hardpoint say a Centurion arm possibly even under-armoring the arm.

Also in the McMech example and with floating criticals if you are able to swap standard armor/endo back and forth then you CAN mount that PPC (which was restricted by endo-steel).



Step 1. Switch to Standard internals.
Step 2. Since standard internal gets rid of ALL endo, place the PPC under the Lower Arm Actuator
Step 3. Switch BACK to endo-steel and assign the "extra" endo steel elsewhere (usually possible since most mechs designs don't have all critical slots assigned.
(would be the same if this was ferro-firbrous armor)

If this is possible it totally bypasses critical space restrictions.

[eZZip]

Yeach, on 28 May 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

So in conclusion my opinion is that mechs should not be able to swap standard armor, internals or engine for endo-steel, ferro-fibrous or XL engines (and vice versa) freely because of the mess assigning criticals will take.
The solution of course is to take the variant with the armor, internal and engine you like where ALL the critical space has already been assigned and then upgrade (or downgrade) from there. No swapping between the armor, internals or engine.

If all that stuff can be freely swapped, then just check if there are enough crits available everywhere for the swapping before actually changing it, like MW3. Locking them to variants will probably just make some variants less used than others.

Yeach, on 30 May 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Step 1. Switch to Standard internals.
Step 2. Since standard internal gets rid of ALL endo, place the PPC under the Lower Arm Actuator
Step 3. Switch BACK to endo-steel and assign the "extra" endo steel elsewhere (usually possible since most mechs designs don't have all critical slots assigned.
(would be the same if this was ferro-firbrous armor)
If this is possible it totally bypasses critical space restrictions.

I really have no idea why you are making a deal out of this. It's not some gigantic programming challenge; solutions for problems exactly like this were formed decades ago. It's like you've outlined an exploit and assumed that it is unfixable. Make endo-steel crits not assignable and don't let the user change it to endo-steel if they lack crits. PROBLEM SOLVED!

Edited by eZZip, 30 May 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

At the moment looking at what the MechLab seems to allow if you use an energy based set up, like the 2 PPC Hunchback. You can replicate the same mech in all the variants. This seems to take away the original intention of varants. ie playing different types. The only reason for buying the variant chassis is the need to do so to progress up the pilot/mech trees. it just seems a bit silly if you can do so in what is effectively the same mech.

[ManDaisy]

Balancing hardpoints is obviously going to be a problem with the variants as well. Some variants may include more hardpoints, but generally like you said, most varients can be turned into one another without the need for additional hardpoints.

[Yeach]

eZZip, on 30 May 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

If all that stuff can be freely swapped, then just check if there are enough crits available everywhere for the swapping before actually changing it, like MW3. Locking them to variants will probably just make some variants less used than others.

You mean mechwarrior3, where custom designs tend to be where you load up all your weapons and heatsinks in the torso and assigned ALL the endo-steel/ferro-fibrous in the arms? Bonus points for putting 0 pts of armor in the arms.

eZZip, on 30 May 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

I really have no idea why you are making a deal out of this. It's not some gigantic programming challenge; solutions for problems exactly like this were formed decades ago. It's like you've outlined an exploit and assumed that it is unfixable. Make endo-steel crits not assignable and don't let the user change it to endo-steel if they lack crits. PROBLEM SOLVED!

The reason I am making such a big deal is that based on the poll where it seems people want to buy a mech and be able to freely swap between standard/ferror-fibrous armor; standard/endo-steel internals and standard and XL engines. The extra criticals messes up internal space and could possible influence what you can have on the mech hardpoints.

And what do you mean by making endo-steel non-assignable?
Switching from standard internals to endo-steel means there are 14 criticals to be assigned.
The question is shoud the player be able to assign them or should be pre-assigned (by the devs) and fixed?

And as I mentioned in my first post, the simplest solution would be that each mech variant have the choice of engine type, internals and armor already chosen and the critical spaces for those already assigned.
Within that variant you can upgrade/downgrade engine size or increase/decrease armor; no internal changes.
If you want the same mech with endo and XL engine, then you will have to buy the variant that has XL and endo.

In regards to the last two posters, Mandaisy and Nik Van Rhijn, it doesnt have to be just hardpoints that define a variant; it can also include the type of engine, internal and armor as well.... if their type cannot be swapped and changed.

[ManDaisy]

Hey I just thought of something. How about making it so for every X tons of ferro armor you must then assign 1 crit. It may not be by the books flat 14, but that doesn't really make sense if you think about it really.

Endo steel however.... hmmm I dunno, I think 14 flat for endo is reasonable due to internal structures scaling with the size of the mech.

People will always fight for endo steel because it is the superior modification, with this change its a bit more balanced.

As for repair cost, I hope the devs scale up the repair cost for endo structures as compared to standard.

Edited by ManDaisy, 30 May 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[Yeach]

ManDaisy, on 30 May 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Hey I just thought of something. How about making it so for every X tons of ferro armor you must then assign 1 crit. It may not be by the books flat 14, but that doesn't really make sense if you think about it really.

Endo steel however.... hmmm I dunno, I think 14 flat for endo is reasonable due to internal structures scaling with the size of the mech.

People will always fight for endo steel because it is the superior modification, with this change its a bit more balanced.

As for repair cost, I hope the devs scale up the repair cost for endo structures as compared to standard.

Player assigned or mechlab automatically assigns?
Before or after weapons assignment?

[ManDaisy]

auto assign would make the most sense, you just dont have endo like in your example all in the arms. As you said its distributed everywhere...

For armor, I guess you could do per armor points on that area rounded up.

So long as the slots required were filled, I dont see what dif it makes if I place it a little lower so I can get 1 full 3 slot for a ppc, or a little higehr so I get 1 slot and then 2 slots. Honestly the assign would take place same time of weapons so long as requirements were met.

Of course this would potentially conflict with some already established cannon mechs that feature large weapons such as ac 20s even with arm and torso crit sharing rules.

Edited by ManDaisy, 30 May 2012 - 06:04 PM.