36 replies to this topic

[Yeach]

ManDaisy, on 30 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

auto assign would make the most sense, you just dont have endo like in your example all in the arms. As you said its distributed everywhere...

For armor, I guess you could do per armor points on that area rounded up.

So long as the slots required were filled, I dont see what dif it makes if I place it a little lower so I can get 1 full 3 slot for a ppc, or a little higehr so I get 1 slot and then 2 slots.

Personally I always imagined endo and ferro to be assigned to the 7 particular areas of the mech (2 each for IS ferro or endo).
1. RA
2. RT
3. CT
4. LT
5. LA
6. LL
7. RL

However this does ruin many or most Battletech TRO Mech designs since this idea uses up all the free critical space in the CT, LL and RL.

Edited by Yeach, 30 May 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

If you go back to BT then, even if sticking to mounting weapons where the original mech had them (which we often did) ES and FF crits were always "freely" allocated ie stick them where theres space. As you rightly pointed out it could make TRO mechs impossible in many cases.

[Rodney28021]

Changing the armor would be easier since all mech are designed with replaceable armor panels. Changing from Standard armor to Fero Fiberous Armor, you would buy the field upgrade kit, remove all the standard armor and replace with the FF Armor. Changing the Internal structure or the fusion engines should require a complete factory rebuild, so you should just trade your old mech in for the new variant that has those newer internal structures and engines. How is the repair technology system going to work in this game? Do you have the services of a real mech factory to mantain your mechs or do you have basic repair technicians and field repair vehicles. Changing the internal technologies should be something the game store could sell. Not likely that every mech lance will be like "Battle Magic". The endo-steel and ferro-fiberous criticals should be set to auto assign into all empty spots, if you don't have the required number you have to remove/redo. What is the time cost and money cost for major remodeling of your mech? What happens to the parts that you remove? A lot of questions need to be answered.

Edited by Rodney28021, 05 June 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[ManDaisy]

yeah but the "game store " customization could lead to Pay to win so I'd rather have endo just non swappable and just be a available only on certain variants that can be purchased normally.

[Lycan]

I said yes to everything.

You should be able to swap everything (although, even though I said "yes" to internals, I can understand why that one may be locked as you'd be pretty much building your mech from the ground up to change out the "skeleton" like that).

Anyway, I also think that there should be a time limit associated with any type of customization. The more you customize, the longer it should take.

Doing so would make customization something that needs to be thought about and not something done as a whim . . .

[Yeach]

Changing from standard armor to Ferro-fibrous armor, you still need to allocate 14 ferro-fibrous critical spaces.

Where do they go on the mech?
Are they auto-assigned or player assigned? And why?

[eZZip]

Yeach, on 30 May 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

You mean mechwarrior3, where custom designs tend to be where you load up all your weapons and heatsinks in the torso and assigned ALL the endo-steel/ferro-fibrous in the arms? Bonus points for putting 0 pts of armor in the arms.

I cited MW3 as an example of how it is not a programming challenge to check the crits available before changing to endo-steel/ferro fibrous, not for its other flaws. For some reason, you assumed that the crit assignments would also work like MW3, even though there isn't any reason why they have to.

Yeach, on 30 May 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

The reason I am making such a big deal is that based on the poll where it seems people want to buy a mech and be able to freely swap between standard/ferror-fibrous armor; standard/endo-steel internals and standard and XL engines. The extra criticals messes up internal space and could possible influence what you can have on the mech hardpoints.

No ****. Anything you add influences what you can have on a hardpoint because the amount of weight that you can add decreases. If you're so worried about that, then don't let them pick their endo-steel/ferro fibrous crit locations.

Yeach, on 30 May 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

And what do you mean by making endo-steel non-assignable?
Switching from standard internals to endo-steel means there are 14 criticals to be assigned.
The question is shoud the player be able to assign them or should be pre-assigned (by the devs) and fixed?

Yeach, on 31 May 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Where do they go on the mech?
Are they auto-assigned or player assigned? And why?

If I can't assign those crits, then obviously the game does. Did you forget that the whole time, you have also said that players shouldn't be able to assign those crits and why they shouldn't (all non-weapon/ammunition/other equipment goes into torso while arms become stubs of endo-steel)? I guess you've answered your own question.

Edited by eZZip, 31 May 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Yeach]

eZZip, on 31 May 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

I cited MW3 as an example of how it is not a programming challenge to check the crits available before changing to endo-steel/ferro fibrous, not for its other flaws. For some reason, you assumed that the crit assignments would also work like MW3, even though there isn't any reason why they have to.

No ****. Anything you add influences what you can have on a hardpoint because the amount of weight that you can add decreases. If you're so worried about that, then don't let them pick their endo-steel/ferro fibrous crit locations.

If I can't assign those crits, then obviously the game does. Did you forget that the whole time, you have also said that players shouldn't be able to assign those crits and why they shouldn't (all non-weapon/ammunition/other equipment goes into torso while arms become stubs of endo-steel)? I guess you've answered your own question.

I am NOT the game designer. I do not make any choices for the game; I can only give my opinion.

I am trying to point out the problems I see of assigning critical space, whether it be automatically or player assigned that will arrise if standard armor or standard internals can be swapped to ferro-fibrous armor and endo-steel respectively.

if you were able to swap
If the critical space is player assigned, then it may be abused; ie putting all endo/ferro criticals on a non-important limb such as the Left arm on a Centurion.
If the critical space is automatically assigned, then it is possible that the assignment may prelude to not being able to make some TRO mech variants; in which case the better option would be to buy the variant itself.
What logic would dictate to where the critical space should be assigned (if the original had standard armor/internals)?

If you were unable to swap
If the mech had endo and/or ferro-fibrous armor, then you would know exactly where the critical space has been assigned and can build fit your mech weaponry accordingly (within hardpoint limitations).

Just not allowing the swapping simplifies the mechlab process and prevents exploitation of hardpoint size. see McMech example.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

As far as we know at the moment the devs seem to be in favour of giving people choice and options rather than limiting them in what they can do. Now whether this changes as a result of beta is another matter. From the interviews it seems unlikely - the devs seem to enjoy playing with the mechlab and making outrageous configs.

[Yeach]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 01 June 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

As far as we know at the moment the devs seem to be in favour of giving people choice and options rather than limiting them in what they can do. Now whether this changes as a result of beta is another matter. From the interviews it seems unlikely - the devs seem to enjoy playing with the mechlab and making outrageous configs.

Yes they sem to like having things a little too open.
Its becoming too much more and more like mechwarrior3 than I would like.

[Zakatak]

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

But it should take time to have the refit mech assembled. At least 10 matches if you took out the engine and structure.

[Squigles]

Yes, yes, and yes. Dear god though, no arbitrary wait times for refits to "complete", that's nearly as bad as ye olde EQ corpse run for annoyance factor. If you want to hamper the frequency of refits, just beg the developers to implement MW2:Mercs refit costs. That's 50K Cbills per crit filled, emptied, or swapped with something else in workmanship alone.

Yeach, on 30 May 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Player assigned or mechlab automatically assigns?
Before or after weapons assignment?

I'd suggest we go with CBT construction rules, which strongly suggest that you note how many crits you need to reserve for Endo/Ferro, although you assign them as the very last step in the constuction process.

As to Player assigned or auto, if they wind up charging you for tech work in the lab, you'll want player assigned so you've the option of keeping areas empty that you may want to fill down the road with another mod job. Otherwise, auto assignment into empty spaces simply as a time saver, no need to micro manage the totally immaterial.

Yeach, on 31 May 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

If the critical space is player assigned, then it may be abused; ie putting all endo/ferro criticals on a non-important limb such as the Left arm on a Centurion.

This isn't actually an abuse of any kind, there are systems that are required by the rules to place their crits in all locations, or very specific locations, ferro and endo are not one of those systems, they're supposed to just sit off to the side and get stuffed into all the little nooks and crannies that you've no use for once you've placed everything else.

Edited by Squigles, 01 June 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[Sleeping Bear]

I think I posted it somewhere else but I think that technology upgrades should be earned either as house loyalty rewards or as a reward for a Merc Corp controlling a planet. This simple expedient will ensure that people will have to work for and earn that advanced tech. If you put in the work, then it is my opinion that you can do whatever the hell you want with it. However I would like to reiterate that you can not pay irl money to earn advanced tech, that you must earn it in-game.

[Yeach]

Squigles, on 01 June 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

I'd suggest we go with CBT construction rules, which strongly suggest that you note how many crits you need to reserve for Endo/Ferro, although you assign them as the very last step in the constuction process.

As to Player assigned or auto, if they wind up charging you for tech work in the lab, you'll want player assigned so you've the option of keeping areas empty that you may want to fill down the road with another mod job. Otherwise, auto assignment into empty spaces simply as a time saver, no need to micro manage the totally immaterial.

If you go by the CBT construction rules, why do we need so many mechs; all we need are a single mech for each tonnage (and maybe one or two variants for hardpoints)?
The more customizeable a mech becomes, the less uniqueness it has with the other mechs of the same weight class.

Squigles, on 01 June 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

This isn't actually an abuse of any kind, there are systems that are required by the rules to place their crits in all locations, or very specific locations, ferro and endo are not one of those systems, they're supposed to just sit off to the side and get stuffed into all the little nooks and crannies that you've no use for once you've placed everything else.

So you don't think fitting all a large portion of the the endo and ferro onto the left arm of Centurion is abuse?

Thinking a Cicada now; no hardpoints on the arms and placing all the endo/ferro in the arms and minimizing armor to almost nil so I can get the most speed/weapons in the torso.

[TheRulesLawyer]

You pretty much need access to a mech factory to do a endosteel or XL swap. So no, they shouldn't be an option. However its the same long running argument of "I should be able to do it because I did in previous mw games" vs "It doesn't make sense in the battletech universe."

Edited by TheRulesLawyer, 05 June 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

TheRulesLawyer, on 05 June 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

You pretty much been access to a mech factory to do a endosteel or XL swap. So no, they shouldn't be an option. However its the same long running argument of "I should be able to do it because I did in previous mw games" vs "It doesn't make sense in the battletech universe."

An arguement lost in favour of the first. Which means I will optimise the hell out of my mechs like most others. Nice thing about the Hunchback is that all variants are able to be made 2 PPC so you dont even have to change your playstyle to level the variant chassis up. Although somehow I get the feeling they didn't expect that.

[Yeach]

TheRulesLawyer, on 05 June 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

You pretty much need access to a mech factory to do a endosteel or XL swap. So no, they shouldn't be an option. However its the same long running argument of "I should be able to do it because I did in previous mw games" vs "It doesn't make sense in the battletech universe."

Mechwarrior 4 did not allow you to swap XL and endo-steel.
Mechcommander did not allow you to swap any of the three.

Just saying...