62 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Nathan K, on 24 February 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

It would be nice for Flamers and MGs to be needed.

My click-and-drag Medium Lasers would like to object to this statement.

[Ashla Mason]

Grizley, on 28 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

The second example is exactly what I mean by special terrain or circumstance. Elementals can be used in place of infantry for holding close terrain. That's really not that strong a use...

My second example is hardly special circumstances; it's good planning and team work. Further, infantry can't threaten mechs like battle armor can.

I'll agree that elementals bounding across the open plains are extremely vulnerable, but that's kind of like saying a light mech is terrible because if it's not moving it's armor can't protect it. One assumes that it will be used to optimal effect.

[Grizley]

Infantry certainly could pose every bit the threat as Elementals in the going through a small pass situation.

They can plant (vibro)mines, carry inferno launchers, man portable PPCs etc. They can use sapper charges to destroy leg actuators etc.

Single word example: Twycross. Infantry planted explosives that took out an entire trinary of Falcon Guard.

[Pihb]

no

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Lets look at this economically.

A point of Elementals in Battle Armor is roughly 2.5 million C-Bills.
http://www.sarna.net...Battle_Armor%29

This thing is less than 2 million and can be mass produced...
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier

Which would you rather turn a corner and see at point blank range in River City?

[Grizley]

To be fair SRM Carriers are ******** strong. But yeah, for a brown pants moment it has battle armor beat all to hell.

Think how much people complain about a Cat packing 6xSRM6. That's almost twice as bad.

[Ashla Mason]

Grizley, on 28 February 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Single word example: Twycross. Infantry planted explosives that took out an entire trinary of Falcon Guard.

You mean the explosives that Kai set off with his mech after the infantry were annihilated?

[Ashla Mason]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 28 February 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Lets look at this economically.

A point of Elementals in Battle Armor is roughly 2.5 million C-Bills.
http://www.sarna.net...Battle_Armor%29

This thing is less than 2 million and can be mass produced...
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier

Which would you rather turn a corner and see at point blank range in River City?

True, an SRM carrier has greater destructive power, but it loses out in a few regards to battle armor:

1. Easier to hit
2. more limited mobility (It's faster, but it can't go the same places an elemental can and is more adversely effected by adverse terrain.
3. The elementals are liable to actually leave something worth salvaging.
4. The SRM carrier shows up on radar. Elementals not so much.

[Skylarr]

Ashla Mason, on 27 February 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

Let me brake down how this works using clan ghost bear's SOP going up against say... a mercenary assault lance.

The assault lance which is fielding an atlas, a zeus, a banshee and a victor wind up being charged by a ghost bear force consisting of a pair of firemoths and a dragonfly. Figuring the clan mechs are being piloted by morons who have been drinking too long at the "genetically supperior" pond (what with them charging enemies who both outnumber and critically outmass them by 175 tons) decide to stand and shoot, and probably aren't going to hit much considering the Firemoths move at a speed of 216 Kmph with masc activated and the dragonfly isn't exactly slow at 129.6.

As soon as the Light mechs are in spitting distance, 2 elemental points (5 man teams) leap out and grapple with two of the mechs (doesn't matter which really), firing small lasers, SRM2s and machine guns while shredding armor with their battleclaws. Sure, the assault mechs can *try* and swat them off or shoot them, but that means shooting a man sized target off of a 40 foot tall robot, and you still have those light mechs nipping at your heals. By the time they can take them down, they've probably savaged your armor if not murdered the merc's mech outright and either moved on to the next mech or headed for cover.

But hey, that example requires some luck and some mechs to work, so lets try one that doesn't have any mechs directly involved!

Those same mercs move to support other forces who are getting pummeled several sectors away. Assault mechs not being the fastest of mechs the lance takes the most direct route possible: through a pass. Before they enter it, they collectively stop to check their sensors for mechs, and don't see anything, so they advance into the pass and suddenly find themselves facing a full star of elementals (25 battle armored troops) popping out from everything and anything that can hide them from the assault mech's line of sight. Again, once they are grappled the mechs are basically at the mercy of their opponents.

I am looking at the 1st engagement from a TT point of view.
The average IS MechWarrior was Greens (6 Gunner). The Clanners were Regs (4 Gunners). (Clanners grades are better than the IS. SO, a Green IS was 6 while a Green Clanner was a 5)

The IS Assualt lance(Or Stiener Scout Lance): Atlas(BV 1,557), Banshee(BV 1,223) and a Victor(BV 1,165) (I am gueesing the last Mech was down because of maintanace problems. Their Techs are Greens as well.)

The Clan Recon Nova ( only 3 Light Mechs and 3 points of Elementals. The rest of the Nova is on the Warship pissed because they were removed from the Bid): Firemoth(BV 1,057), Firemoth(BV 1,057), Dragonfly(BV 1,484) and 3 Points of Elementals(BV 50ea x 15= 750)

BV IS = 3945
BV Clans = 4348
This does not include the Pilots. Sorry I could not find that info so quickly.

If the IS Mech stand still the whole time and the Clans run at full speed the whole Time the IS MechWarriors need 10s on 2d6 and the Clans need 7s on 2d6. This does not include Range, Terrain, Mins, etc. If this was a Merc Unit they will be Regs( Needing 9s on 2d6).

The IS Mechs do not have a chance unless their commander is a Tactical Genius and they get lucky hits.

---------------------------------------------------
The second engagement:

Same 3 Mech against 25 Elementals whoa re able spring a trap. While the Atlas has an AC-20, it also has an LRM-20 it cannot use. The Banshee has a PPC he will have a hard time using. Once the Elementals swarm the Mech are done for.


* Edited were I said STAR. I should have said NOVA.

Edited by Skylarr, 17 March 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[Skylarr]

Ashla Mason, on 28 February 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Grizley, on 28 February 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Single word example: Twycross. Infantry planted explosives that took out an entire trinary of Falcon Guard.

You mean the explosives that Kai set off with his mech after the infantry were annihilated?

I have a small problem with that story.

"Ok you guys are to be in the middle of the canyon. When the enemy Mech get realy close spring you ambush and high tail back here so I can blow up the canyon."

"Do not worry I am sure you guys can out run a Mech"

[Pariah Devalis]

Skylarr, on 01 March 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I am looking at the 1st engagement from a TT point of view.
The average IS MechWarrior was Greens (6 Gunner). The Clanners were Regs (4 Gunners). (Clanners grades are better than the IS. SO, a Green IS was 6 while a Green Clanner was a 5)

The IS Assualt lance(Or Stiener Scout Lance): Atlas(BV 1,557), Banshee(BV 1,223) and a Victor(BV 1,165) (I am gueesing the last Mech was down because of maintanace problems. Their Techs are Greens as well.)

The Clan Recon Star ( only 3 Light Mechs and 3 points of Elementals. The rest of the Star is on the Warship pissed because they were removed from the Bid): Firemoth(BV 1,057), Firemoth(BV 1,057), Dragonfly(BV 1,484) and 3 Points of Elementals(BV 50ea x 15= 750)

BV IS = 3945
BV Clans = 4348
This does not include the Pilots. Sorry I could not find that info so quickly.

If the IS Mech stand still the whole time and the Clans run at full speed the whole Time the IS MechWarriors need 10s on 2d6 and the Clans need 7s on 2d6. This does not include Range, Terrain, Mins, etc. If this was a Merc Unit they will be Regs( Needing 9s on 2d6).

The IS Mechs do not have a chance unless their commander is a Tactical Guiness and they get lucky hits.

---------------------------------------------------
The second engagement:

Same 3 Mech against 25 Elementals whoa re able spring a trap. While the Atlas has an AC-20, it also has an LRM-20 it cannot use. The Banshee has a PPC he will have a hard time using. Once the Elementals swarm the Mech are done for.

A star is 5 points, quiaff? Why do I count six points? The star from hell?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 01 March 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Grizley]

Pariah Devalis, on 01 March 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

A star is 5 points, quiaff? Why do I count six points? The star from hell?

Little known fact, Ghost Bears are in fact all Jewish. Instead of the traditional "Star" they organize their units in "Star of David"s hence the 6 points.

[Skylarr]

Pariah Devalis, on 01 March 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

A star is 5 points, quiaff? Why do I count six points? The star from hell?

If you were a true Clanner you would've recognized that I was really talking about a Nova. I did origanally say STAR, but, I corrected it.

Quote

Nova: A Clan military formation consisting of a Star of OmniMechs and a Star of Elementals. Rather than just being two separate Stars deployed together, Novas are trained in combined-arms tactics and operate as a single cohesive unit.

Grizley, on 01 March 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Little known fact, Ghost Bears are in fact all Jewish. Instead of the traditional "Star" they organize their units in "Star of David"s hence the 6 points.

Comstar uses a 6-Mech Lance.

Quote

Com Gaurds

Structure and Composition

Unlike Successor States' 4-unit and Clan 5-unit groupings, the Com Guards base their forces on multiples of six. The Com Guard's equivalent of a Lance or Star is a Level II, made up of six Level I units, and given the Guards use of combined arms tactics most frequently consists of mixed unit types. A Level IV, made of up of six Level III units, is roughly parallel to the Regimental Combat Teams of the AFFC. Com Guards do not commonly use a formal organization above Level IV. Outside of such rare instances as the Battle of Tukayyid and Case White, Levels V and VI are purely administrative groupings.

[Grizley]

A nova is 10 points, with those points being fixed. It's just a special case of a binary.

It's not 6 points either, it's 10.

Oh, and respect the Bear Jews with their Star of David formation.

[Pariah Devalis]

Grizley, on 01 March 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

A nova is 10 points, with those points being fixed. It's just a special case of a binary.

If you were a true clanner....

Foot, meet mouth?

On top of which, at the time I quoted you, no such correction was made. Fortunate you have TWO feet, quiaff?

P.S.: CONTRACTIONS!

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 01 March 2013 - 05:21 PM.

[Skylarr]

Pariah Devalis, on 01 March 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

If you were a true clanner....

Foot, meet mouth?

On top of which, at the time I quoted you, no such correction was made. Fortunate you have TWO feet, quiaff?

P.S.: CONTRACTIONS!

Quote

The Clan Recon Nova ( only 3 Light Mechs and 3 points of Elementals. The rest of the Nova is on the Warship pissed because they were removed from the Bid): Firemoth(BV 1,057), Firemoth(BV 1,057), Dragonfly(BV 1,484) and 3 Points of Elementals(BV 50ea x 15= 750)

* Edited were I said STAR. I should have said NOVA.

Edited by Skylarr, Today, 07:30 PM.

I did state that I made an error and corrected it.

A NOVA is 5 Points of Mechs and 5 points of elementals.

"The rest of the Nova is on the Warship pissed because they were removed from the Bid"

The above statement was in there the who time. Implying the rest of the Nova was removed during the bidding process.

Do I need to explain the Bidding Process? I am not a Clanner, but, I am sure I can get most of it correct.

Edited by Skylarr, 01 March 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

At the time I quoted: "The Clan Recon Star ( only 3 Light Mechs and 3 points of Elementals. The rest of the Star is on the Warship pissed because they were removed from the Bid): Firemoth(BV 1,057), Firemoth(BV 1,057), Dragonfly(BV 1,484) and 3 Points of Elementals(BV 50ea x 15= 750)"

No mention of Nova at the time I responded. In fact, your post stayed incorrect for quite a long while until I responded. It is all well and good to correct it, but to use a rude choice of words for an error you made when presented with a reply made when the error still existed is uncalled for. The fact that you either ignore or are oblivious to the fact that you responded rudely is sad enough. Had you used Nova or Binary properly when you initially posted (or, say, sometime in the SIX HOURS it took for me to respond to it), it might be another story, however....

If you want to look like Mr Mc-I-know-clans-better-than-you-clanner, then do try to avoid a retroactive correction AFTER you are called out for it, then try to pass it off like I was an ***** for spotting your error.

Edit: Uhr Muhr Gersh, Tuhr Stuhrmps.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 01 March 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[Jimskiavic]

Here's where the confusion's come from: the example only mentioned 2 points of elementals, plus the three mechs. So one star. And you've missed the Zeus from the IS lance.

[James Pryde IIC]

why could they just not make it like "Mechwarrior Living Legends". Perfect game !

[Skylarr]

Skylarr, on 01 March 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I am looking at the 1st engagement from a TT point of view.
According to Total Warfare the Average IS MechWarrior is 4/5 and CLan Mech WArrior is 3/4. I believe after the Clan Invasion IS Pilots were better trained. Several older source books said Regular IS Mechwarriors were 5/6 and Clans at 4/5. I will use the TW numbers

The average IS House MechWarrior was Reg(4 Gunner). The average Clan Mechwarrior were Regs (3 Gunners). (Clanners grades are better than the IS. SO, a Green IS was 6 while a Green Clanner was a 5)

The IS Assualt lance(Or Stiener Scout Lance): Zeus(BV 1,148) Atlas(BV 1,557), Banshee(BV 1,223) and a Victor(BV 1,165) (I am gueesing the last Mech was down because of maintanace problems. Their Techs are Greens as well.)

The Clan Recon Nova ( only 3 Light Mechs and 2 points of Elementals. The rest of the Nova is on the Warship pissed because they were removed from the Bid): Firemoth(BV 1,057), Firemoth(BV 1,057), Dragonfly(BV 1,484) and 2 Points of Elementals(BV 50ea x 10= 500)

BV IS = 5093
BV Clans = 4098
This does not include the BVs for Pilots. Sorry I could not find that info so quickly.

If the IS Mech stand still the whole time (+0 mod To Hit and +0 To be Hit) and the Clans run at full speed the whole time (+2 To Hit and +4 To be Hit). The IS MechWarriors need 8s on 2d6 and the Clans need 5s on 2d6. This does not include Range, Terrain, Mins, etc. If this was a Merc Unit, who useally have some experience in combat, they will be Regs( Needing 9s on 2d6).

The IS Mechs do not have a chance unless their commander is a Tactical Guiness and they get lucky hits.

---------------------------------------------------
The second engagement:

Same 3 Mech against 25 Elementals whoa re able spring a trap. While the Atlas has an AC-20, it also has an LRM-20 it cannot use. The Banshee has a PPC he will have a hard time using. Once the Elementals swarm the Mech are done for.


* Edited were I said STAR. I should have said NOVA.

Jimskiavic, on 02 March 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

Here's where the confusion's come from: the example only mentioned 2 points of elementals, plus the three mechs. So one star. And you've missed the Zeus from the IS lance.

Thank you for pointing what I missed. I corrected it. While the IS forces have 1,000 point lead I think it will be a close fight.

I appologize for the attitude yesterday. Had a bad day.