419 replies to this topic

[Agent of Change]

Max Liao, on 25 February 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

I'm not going to go out of my way to antagonize anyone, unless they try to censor or antagonize me, but I'm not going to coddle anyone either.

What we are talking about is not censorship strictly speaking we are talking about violations of teh TOS everyone agreed with in the very limited forum of in game chat where PGI has the right to block or allow anything. We have no rights in MWO beyond what PGI allows, but the restriction that have laid out a re there to enforce a level of decency that most people would consider reasonable.

Not at issue is the internet at large, or what you say outside of in game chat where PGI's TOS has no effect.

Other than that i mostly agree with you.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lubalin, on 24 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Please don't make light of this. "Deal with it" is not appropriate here. Go share that response on all the imbalance threads, but not this one.

I'm Sorry, What inappropriate things were said this weekend? What qualifies as inappropriate. I am an old grizzled man with some worldly experience and a military vocabulary when I need to do some smack talk.

Unless you are 14, or the things said to you are true, Why would words hurt you? If they ARE true, why would they hurt?

[ChrisOrange]

Jabilo, on 25 February 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Disagree. There are some intelligent posts here. Hidden, but here.

Also, it is interesting to see people whose position is "you should be able to say what you want on the internet" call for the thread to be locked.

This was also your third post in a pointless thread that you care nothing about.

I'm here because I like to laugh at buttmads. They also trying to put words in my mouth. Here's what's going to happen when the thread is locked. PGI is going to say:

"thread locked please check our policy on this over at: (LINK)"

There's nothing more to say about it than that. Just reference PGI's policies on things like this. It's not the place to argue and try to be "right." It's an online game...it happens in every game. These forums are not your personal white knighting crusade playland so let's clean up the thread and lock it.

What can you do besides make YOURSELF look bad by trying to be "right?" Nothing.

Official statement below

ChrisOrange, on 25 February 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

They talk a lot until you point them out. lock this whole dumb thread. These crybabies can't handle words during online play their tears sustain me. they are just jealous of my rock hard abs and dynamite areolas.

Edited by ChrisOrange, 25 February 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 February 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

I'm Sorry, What inappropriate things were said this weekend? What qualifies as inappropriate. I am an old grizzled man with some worldly experience and a military vocabulary when I need to do some smack talk.

Unless you are 14, or the things said to you are true, Why would words hurt you? If they ARE true, why would they hurt?

Actually the OP has provided no details AT ALL, so it's all pure speculation.

[0X2A]

My policy on vulgar (non-harassment) on the internet in a non-professional setting.


I'm sorry, but you people need to learn that life isn't full of perfect people who know exactly what you're offended by.

What shouldn't be reported:
-Raging (I do this occasionally. OMG I'M HUMAN! I GET FRUSTRATED AT GAMES SOMETIMES!)
-Jokes (Offense to others is UNINTENTIONAL, but like any joke has the ability to offend anyone)

What should be reported:
-Harassment (Multiple cases of INTENTIONAL mental distress to the recipient, this isn't raging)
-Hate speeches (I have yet to see an anti "group x/y" movement on an online game especially in MW:O)

As a disclaimer:

I have raged at people, it happens. What separates raging from harassment is that I drop it after the game is over. It's just a game, and life's too short to be mad at people for more than a game.

[Penance]

Max Liao, on 25 February 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

• You're reading into something that's not there or the intent.

Kind of my point as well...the whole anonymous thing3

@AGENT...after re-reading the OP, it doesn't really say much. Just that he's upset at seeing people use some words...so nothing was really directed at him specifically. Knowing this...let's take a step back.

1- comments not directed at op based on description.
2- don't know what was said, only can assume, so even the "degree of hate" can be brought into question, was what was said really that bad? we have no idea.

So the OP is offended by just blanket comments, nothing directed at him specifically....he's offended by trash-talking that occurs during the normal course of competition.

OP needs thicker skin...period

[Thirdstar]

I'll also repost this, because I think it got missed.

Zaptruder, on 25 February 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Even if you feel apathetic, don't try to foist your apathy upon others as though it were the morally superior course of action.

It is however the more realistic/pragmatic course of action.

There's only one way to maintain a high level of civility on the internet and that is to apply absolutely iron handed authoritarian rules alongside unmerciful moderation.

You either bring the banhammer down HARD on everything equally, or you adopt the more lax attitude most forums have. There is literally no other way to get anonymous people to behave, there is nothing you can appeal to, no bribe you can provide that will make an iota of difference.

[Max Liao]

Agent of Change, on 25 February 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

What we are talking about is not censorship strictly speaking we are talking about violations of teh TOS everyone agreed with in the very limited forum of in game chat where PGI has the right to block or allow anything. We have no rights in MWO beyond what PGI allows, but the restriction that have laid out a re there to enforce a level of decency that most people would consider reasonable.

Not at issue is the internet at large, or what you say outside of in game chat where PGI's TOS has no effect.

Other than that i mostly agree with you.

Ah, in this you are 100% correct. However, what constitutes hate speech or racial invective to you (or even PGI) may be way different that me. In my previous post where someone called me a "j e w," - (in the full meaning of someone who is greedy and taking everything he can get) - is that hate speech? Three little letters typed to me because he was mad that I dun made hiz pixels get all fall'ed down?

I don't see that as hate speech. I see that as someone simply raging and trying to get under my skin. Since I don't take offense to things like that, I simply left the match and went on to the next one.

I was more 'offended' by an ECM Atlas saying something like, "I hope none of you [F-word]'s following me are in an Awesome. I don't give ECM protection to Awesomes." That's actually game effecting.

[Xinaoen]

ChrisOrange, on 25 February 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

just sayin there's no gainful discussion to be had here only whiteknights ganging up on people that probably don't deserve it. It actually makes you guys look worse. Here's the worst thing you can do in this "discussion:" try to be "right."

There's nothing better for you to do? We are all stupider for reading this garbage can thread. This quest you guys are on to be "right" actually makes YOU the ones who look bad report this thread people.

I think there might've been a few posts on the last page where you forgot to use the words "white knight" and "garbage can thread." Don't worry, there's still time to edit.

I love how you have nothing but contempt for this thread and everyone who's participating in it, and yet you're so compelled to make sure that everyone knows that this entire discussion is beneath you that you can't stop bumping the thread.

Max Liao, on 25 February 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

While I'm professional at work, and I maintain appropriate decorum in other areas - (i.e. I'm not religious, but I won't cuss in a church; I try not to cuss around children; etc.) - if you're around me, you're not going to tell me what I can and can't say - (and don't use the movie theater reference, you know that's not what this discussion is about). If you get ******** over it I'm going to do it more, just to make you more ********; and to either drive you away or help you realize they are words ... just words. Not action ... words.

I have all the business in the world to tell someone not to take offense:

• If it's a joke, or obvious satire - whether you like it or not.
  
• It's true.
  
• You're reading into something that's not there or the intent.

I'm not going to go out of my way to antagonize anyone, unless they try to censor or antagonize me, but I'm not going to coddle anyone either.

Political correctness is the sign of a weak and controlled mind. You can rant, cry, cajole, or otherwise try and persuade me otherwise, but you'll be wasting your breath.

I think that people really severely misunderstand how the human mind works. If somebody hits me with the n-bomb, I don't sit down, rationalize, and decide how to feel about it. I don't weigh the context; I don't think it over logically, and then choose whether or not to be offended. I have an instant, gut-level reaction; the emotional part of my brain leaps into action while the rational part is still processing. Once the logical brain catches up, I might cool down. I might decide not to make a big deal out of it; if so, I'm choosing to be a bigger person than the guy who made the comment in the first place. Nothing is going to change that initial reaction, though - it's like a sucker punch. To say something knowing that it might cause that reaction is rude, it's terribly inconsiderate, and it's completely uncalled for.

"Political Correctness" is a silly label. It rationalizes douchey behavior by equating empathy and weakness; it puts thoughtless people on a pedestal. I'm not a fan.

[Agent of Change]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 February 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

I'm Sorry, What inappropriate things were said this weekend? What qualifies as inappropriate. I am an old grizzled man with some worldly experience and a military vocabulary when I need to do some smack talk.

Unless you are 14, or the things said to you are true, Why would words hurt you? If they ARE true, why would they hurt?

I share several things in common with you and I will never really balk at "explicit" language. Marines talk like marines, but being able to string together epic and creative sentences comprised primarily of 4 letter words is not what is at issue here.

It's using racial, gender, and sexual slurs (commonly known as hate speech) in a callous manner in game chat in direct violation of the TOS. That's all i'm here to argue against and the crux of the argument in favor of the OP.

[ChrisOrange]

Thirdstar, on 25 February 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

You either bring the banhammer down HARD on everything equally, or you adopt the more lax attitude most forums have. There is literally no other way to get anonymous people to behave, there is nothing you can appeal to, no bribe you can provide that will make an iota of difference.

Well...the most important thing is consistency in how you moderate. Also I'm not actually anonymous myself. I've got a twitch link where u can see my face that also has links to my real FB and real Twitter account.

That doesn't make me afraid to tell these guys they are just terrible human beings for even starting this thread and whiteknighting the OP is also a mistake. The OP probably just got OWNED and couldn't handle it.

[Agent of Change]

Penance, on 25 February 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Kind of my point as well...the whole anonymous thing3

@AGENT...after re-reading the OP, it doesn't really say much. Just that he's upset at seeing people use some words...so nothing was really directed at him specifically. Knowing this...let's take a step back.

1- comments not directed at op based on description.
2- don't know what was said, only can assume, so even the "degree of hate" can be brought into question, was what was said really that bad? we have no idea.

So the OP is offended by just blanket comments, nothing directed at him specifically....he's offended by trash-talking that occurs during the normal course of competition.

OP needs thicker skin...period

Upon review Agreed.

Then I will now cop to having co-opted this thread in the name of the greater good and in support of the TOS.
I also admit i read more of the following comments after the OP so context of the original post may have been lost before my first response post.

Still i regret nothing, now where's my soap box.

[xxREVxx]

Ilwrath, on 25 February 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

The hate speech sure is getting worse. One day I was playing in US prime time and someone said
"homosexual negroid jew" on the chat. I was so shocked. It got me out of balance and I missed my target. After that I quit the game for that session but was thinking about it a long time and it basically ruined my entire weekend.

Wow, you are delicate...look, not condoning it either. Instead of letting it ruin your weekend you probably should have gotten focused, made him a primary target, and put him out of his misery even if this person was on your team. I'll admit it, I've TK'd people for stepping over the line. Pretty sure the powers that be would let that TK slide...just sayin

[Zaptruder]

Thirdstar, on 25 February 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

It is however the more realistic/pragmatic course of action.

There's only one way to maintain a high level of civility on the internet and that is to apply absolutely iron handed authoritarian rules alongside unmerciful moderation.

You either bring the banhammer down HARD on everything equally, or you adopt the more lax attitude most forums have. There is literally no other way to get anonymous people to behave, there is nothing you can appeal to, no bribe you can provide that will make an iota of difference.

Belligerent ******** aren't going to change their ways from some simple chiding.

But a frequent reminder that racist, homophobic, hateful speech is the sign of ineptitude and impotence helps gird impressionable people that try to mimic what they commonly see around.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Do not acknowledge them.

[Max Liao]

0X2A, on 25 February 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

My policy on vulgar (non-harassment) on the internet in a non-professional setting.


I'm sorry, but you people need to learn that life isn't full of perfect people who know exactly what you're offended by.

What shouldn't be reported:
-Raging (I do this occasionally. OMG I'M HUMAN! I GET FRUSTRATED AT GAMES SOMETIMES!)
-Jokes (Offense to others is UNINTENTIONAL, but like any joke has the ability to offend anyone)

What should be reported:
-Harassment (Multiple cases of INTENTIONAL mental distress to the recipient, this isn't raging)
-Hate speeches (I have yet to see an anti "group x/y" movement on an online game especially in MW:O)

As a disclaimer:

I have raged at people, it happens. What separates raging from harassment is that I drop it after the game is over. It's just a game, and life's too short to be mad at people for more than a game.

^^ This!

I rage on my Mumble server, with my friends. I don't rage in-game. Typing takes too much effort.

Xinaoen, on 25 February 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

I think that people really severely misunderstand how the human mind works. If somebody hits me with the n-bomb, I don't sit down, rationalize, and decide how to feel about it. I don't weigh the context; I don't think it over logically, and then choose whether or not to be offended. I have an instant, gut-level reaction; the emotional part of my brain leaps into action while the rational part is still processing. Once the logical brain catches up, I might cool down. I might decide not to make a big deal out of it; if so, I'm choosing to be a bigger person than the guy who made the comment in the first place. Nothing is going to change that initial reaction, though - it's like a sucker punch. To say something knowing that it might cause that reaction is rude, it's terribly inconsiderate, and it's completely uncalled for.

If that's true, then I'd suggest some anger management classes or medication - or avoid the Internet.

If someone said this in your presence, while looking straight into your eye, I could see you getting angry. (And I'd say he'd deserve what he got when you clocked him in the mouth.) His intent in that case was to denigrate you personally. I'd say the same if he called you an *******, b!+ch, or anything else. Personally, when people get stupid like that I laugh them off and walk away. Only when they threaten me with violence do I do anything ... rash. Luckily, that's not a daily occurrence with me.

But we're talking the Internet here. Millions and millions of ego all screaming to be noticed and have a voice, all while remaining anonymous If you were at a crowded sporting venue, with 60,000 other crazy people, and someone (whom you could not directly identify) shouted that term out would you get so incensed? If so, I go back to my original sentence.

[xxREVxx]

Thirdstar, on 25 February 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Now see this is a good point. We should ask the Devs to add a simple right click dropdown to mute and/or ignore a player. Nearly every other online game has this option.

I'm sure it's on the "to do" list. At this point they probably have alot on their plate like getting the game up and running. IMO we really didn't have this crap when it was closed beta, went open beta way too soon. Should have stuck with the older experienced crowd right up to completion.

[DrxAbstract]

Nathan Bloodguard, on 24 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I would like you to know that sticks and stones crap is just that, crap. Its not true and words can hurt more than any physical attack you could ever do. I know of someone who committed suicide because of the bullying that they were supposed to ignore and couldn't hurt you. It's all over the news and there is no reason why any of us should just roll over and take anyone's abuse, even over the internet! Put up and deal with it, or put on your man pants (or like term of grow up) is not dealing with it. All that is doing is supporting those who are not acting like an adult and the name calling bullies. So how about this, instead of supporting bullying, why don't you help fight it and defend those that are not able to defend themselves? Lets just end this here and now and not let it grow for future rot? This should not be tolerated ever. PERIOD END OF STORY.

Defend those that cannot defend themselves... I'm sorry, but i have trouble helping people that cant or wont help themselves. Bullying may be childish, but you will never be rid of it... Ever. Tolerating and overcoming it is a true mark of mental and emotional maturity and since its been in human cultures all over the world since the dawn of time in some form or another suggests it may play a greater role in our personal development than we'd like to admit. If a person cannot overcome the berating from their peers and require constant help from others instead of learning to deal with it personally, or at least conquer it with the assistance of others after a time, they are therefor subject to the law of the wild just as any other creature is... If someone kills themselves over such a subject well, that's just survival of the fittest, because cowering animals cannot feed nor fend for themselves and draw from the resources of their stronger, more capable kin, hindering the group as a whole. I'm not sorry to say it, but human life is nothing special. We're animals, we eat, sleep and poop with the best and worst of them. We're not special, superior to or exempt from the laws of nature and general balance, regardless of what you've convinced yourself or others to believe. We're biologically programmed to love our mates, our offspring, etc. It's our fault it went beyond these basic biological instincts to the 'Everyone matters!" mindset permeating every facet of our world. Everyone does not matter, you're not a unique and special creature gifted by the graces of an imaginary being... If bullying makes you want to kill yourself by all means do it - you wont procreate, your weaker genes will not pass on and those capable of tolerating, overcoming and perhaps, eventually, hopefully, minimizing the bigotry of the modern world, will carry on. People do not become stronger by requiring another to lean on... If at first you needed help, that's fine, it is a learning process after all... but if you cant overcome it, ever? Sorry mate, your parasitic habits only weaken those around you. (Not directed at anyone specifically).

That said, implement what ever filters you want and even ignore - as long as they are optional, because not everyone sees this as an issue.

[Xinaoen]

Max Liao, on 25 February 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

If that's true, then I'd suggest some anger management classes or medication - or avoid the Internet.

It's true because... it is? You don't decide how to feel about things; that's just not how emotions work. Mine don't, and neither do yours - not unless you're literally a sociopath. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is something that I call the "straight male fallacy" - this idea that if your feelings aren't logical, then they're invalid. But, again: feelings aren't logical, but they always make sense. If I've been conditioned to associate a given word with negative experiences, then it makes sense that I'd react in a given way to hearing that word.

Stop and empathize for a second. Think about the kind of stuff that I might've gone through in order for that word to trigger the reaction that it does. If you've got the emotional maturity to put yourself in someone else's shoes, then knowing that you're dragging all of that stuff up whenever you use that word in my presence should probably make you feel kind of crappy.

I don't advocate censorship, but I do think it would be nice if people stopped to think for a second before they spoke.

Quote

But we're talking the Internet here. Millions and millions of ego all screaming to be noticed and have a voice, all while remaining anonymous If you were at a crowded sporting venue, with 60,000 other crazy people, and someone (whom you could not directly identify) shouted that term out would you get so incensed? If so, I go back to my original sentence.

The state of discourse on the internet is shameful, for sure. But it's because we allow the lowest common denominator to set the standard for what's acceptable.

[xxREVxx]

What I really love about this thread are the ones that keep reiterating the hate speech thing....ATTENTION, ATTENTION; Has anyone in here advocated calling someone something that crosses line of Hate Speech??? NO! We agree with you ffs!!!

It seems the issue now is that there are those that are railing against the ones who will run crying to PGI because they got called a ******* noob or they got told that they ******* suck because they did something stupid in-game and caused a flank to collapse and effectively caused or contributed to the loss....it's called raging and you can chalk that up to poor sportsmanship and laugh it off. Or your team kicked another teams *** so bad that they start raging at you, and that you can take as a compliment.
Crybaby whiners who want to live in a perfect world...sheesh.

To address the anonymity thing, my real name is in my email address here. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't back down from anyone or anything on the internet or in RL, especially RL. Hell, I'm polite here...it's to my face you would walk away with something to be offended over.

The PoisonWolf