80 replies to this topic

[Alexandrix]

I've pretty much accepted the status of the raven at this point honestly.I just wish they would fix the damn hitbox/hit detection/lag shield/magical fairy dust the damn things have.If I see one more AC/20 round or cluster of SRM's ping off of a raven and do jack ****,i swear to god,I just might lose it.

Edited by Alexandrix, 25 February 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Fiachdubh]

Not on the leader board but my 4X consistantly scores higher and gets more kills than my 3L. The 3L is a scout and an assassin in the right circumstances but is not a killer like the combat orientated 4X.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Exactly. No one cares about an ECM raven with an srm6, it's the perfect storm that's the issue.

ECM makes it stronger than average against LRMs
ECM then makes streaks more effective against other streaks
Streaks make lights cry

Mediums+ laugh at streaks
Mediums+ can't hit ravens due to hitbox/netcode issues
Mediums+ cry



So Spiders < Ravens because Ravens have streaks
But Cicadas < Cents/Hunch because Cicada's low weight
Cents/Hunchs (with ECM) > cicadas because of high weight? (no, because they'd use streaks).

ECM + Streaks are the horriblest combination of items in the game. Nerfing one won't fix the other, which is why all the remove ECM threads are bad. The combination of ECM + Streaks is what's breaking the game balance wise on the most part, and needs to be shattered (basically, like the suggestions that if you have ECM you can't use streaks).

Cicada is just pretty meh to begin with. It's a lot of things that make it probably the weakest ECM mech. Hard points, tonnage, etc.

The problem is, ECM was put in because of Streaks and LRM's. You should've fixed Streaks and LRM's first. Then added ECM. It makes the whole thing fubar.

In absence of Streaks and LRM's, ECM is still out of whack with other items in the game due to what it does for 1.5 tons, 2 crit slots and no hard point requirement.

And now we keep throwing new band-**** ontop of things.

Like for instance, LRM Decay Module which was suppose to help counter ECM (but really doesn't). But in the absence of ECM, LRM's can be very nasty, and more so with these new larger maps that are starting to come out. But you can't really nerf LRM's because when ECM is in play it can completely neuter them.

Ugh the whole thing is just a cluster f**k of balancing. I've never seen such a thing.

[Lord Rip]

Haters gonna hate.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

Talimar1, on 25 February 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

I piloted a Spider 5D for the entire tournament, before quiting around 9 on sunday night, satisfied with my 8th place finish It was much harder even to grind in that than in anything else because kills count and when going against mostly ravens in the tournament, that does make a difference. At least now though I have a 50% survival rate with an encounter with a lone Raven-3L, compared to about 25% before the tournament. Ravens are so OP.

Impressive! I think I'd have about a 0% solo survival rate against 3Ls in anything with that little firepower and armor. What was your build? Any tips you can share that helped you move up to that 50% number?

[Solis Obscuri]

Arkikim, on 25 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

If PGI keeps this up MWO is going to start getting doomsayers.

Start? Dude, we've had doomsayers here for months...

[Fiachdubh]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 25 February 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Impressive! I think I'd have about a 0% solo survival rate against 3Ls in anything with that little firepower and armor. What was your build? Any tips you can share that helped you move up to that 50% number?

Killed a 3L today with my HBK-4G. Saying that I normally go to pains to avoid any type of lights when in my Hunchies as I also usually end up dead when 1 on 1. They are all vicious little killers but I would rank several other lights including the 4X above the 3L as killing machines.

Edited by Fiachdubh, 25 February 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[EyeOne]

I didn't Opt in. Which may make this a worthless comment but I would have dropped in a Death's Knell. Actually I did play the Death's Knell a lot (for me) this weekend. Not saying the amount of 3Ls out there aren't annoying but I do quite well in the TDK.

My my experience with a 3L the "ECM" floating above your head might as well be a sign that says "Kill me first!!!" I sold my 3L after a week of getting vaporized in the first 3 minutes of play. I'm much more happy now.

I'm not sure if the 3Ls are to blame or Streak2s.

Edited by EyeOne, 25 February 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Mechwarrior4hire]

I mostly used a Raven 3L, but only managed to get it to complete basic during this weekend. I then used the CBills I was earning to buy the 2X and 4X versions, and tried to play those to get enough xp on them to get basic for both, so that I could get Elite on the 3L. This would then allow me to get the 3L to play better with extra speed etc.

However the standard 2x and 4x were very poor performers despite my best efforts, so I played a lot of games in them both not doing that well which was hurting my efforts to get up the board. They are very slow and weak I think until I get CBills to upgrade them much better.

So in the end I stopped playing them unless I died early in the 3L and just played the 3L whenever I could. I got to number 15 in the table when I had to stop playing and go to bed to get up for work, I think I see I was 21 at the end.

I started to play a few days ago and was still playing trial mechs shortly before all this started and only had enough CBills to buy one good mech of my own to take part in the competition. It took me a lot of matches to be able to get enough CBills to buy a new engine and outfit it properly, but it is still only basic skills.

(I don't have premium account or boosts or anything so had to do it all on free play only)

Luckily I had more than usual spare time this weekend just gone, and with the wife and kids away most of the weekend didn't have much else to do, and it is a good game which I found fun. I'm now trying to get the xp needed on the 2X and 4X to allow me to upgrade to Elite on the 3L.

I had a good time.

Edited by Mechwarrior4hire, 25 February 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Bfvmg]

A buddy and were just talking. (I am at work so cannot test this theory)
We thought that since PPC effects ECM, perhaps a jenner with PPC and Streaks could win against a raven?

Something to think about, anyway.

[silentD11]

Bfvmg, on 25 February 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

A buddy and were just talking. (I am at work so cannot test this theory)
We thought that since PPC effects ECM, perhaps a jenner with PPC and Streaks could win against a raven?

Something to think about, anyway.

Laser and missile hardpoints are the best for fighting lights. The best light v light Raven and Jenner are going to be Raven with 3 laser points, two missile points, the Jenner has 4 laser points, to missile points. They're the same poundage, the Jenner has jump jets, the Raven 3L has ECM, the Jenner is faster, the Jenner packs more punch due to the hardpoint situation.

In this case the edge over the Jenner is because ECM allows them to use streaks while the Jenner can't, he has to land his missile shots even though he'll actually have more raw fire power. And as we all know, not having to aim your weapons at all is why people use SRMs and LRMs. If they could both use streaks the Jenner will actually out gun the raven.

Given that the Jenner can't use streaks, if the pilot can actually land the SRM shots (requires understanding how the goofy hit box works, and the Raven isn't a high ping lagger) he can come out on top.

But 1v1 fights like that rarely happen. The Ravens ability to mask it's position, damage on various locations, and hide his friends means that he'll usually get the drop on the jenner, out number him, and thus win.

[Josef Nader]

Talimar1, on 25 February 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

I piloted a Spider 5D for the entire tournament, before quiting around 9 on sunday night, satisfied with my 8th place finish It was much harder even to grind in that than in anything else because kills count and when going against mostly ravens in the tournament, that does make a difference. At least now though I have a 50% survival rate with an encounter with a lone Raven-3L, compared to about 25% before the tournament. Ravens are so OP. I had to play an absurd number of games to stay in the top 10, and when your average match score is much lower due to not having the same damage done and kills and base capping not counting much, and when everyone else is playing FOTM and absurd high damage builds, the tournament became not just a grind but a true test of skill. It was also a grind though. Regardless, I think I truly can say I am the best Spider 5D pilot around.

You are a god among men, sir. My 5K and 5V bow in awe.

(Then the 5K runs off to go tickefight an Atlas to death and the 5V preoccupies himself pretending gravity doesn't exist.)

[hammerreborn]

Bfvmg, on 25 February 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

A buddy and were just talking. (I am at work so cannot test this theory)
We thought that since PPC effects ECM, perhaps a jenner with PPC and Streaks could win against a raven?

Something to think about, anyway.

No. You lose way to much damage potential and have to exclusively rely on convergence and ballistic travel time to use that PPC, as well as all the heat problems that comes with it. The standard D Jenner uses 4 meds, which doesn't even cover the weight of a PPC, so now you're scrapping armor/JJs/Engine to try and get it in there (Though this might be made up for the difference in SRM4s -> ssrm2s).

And now to use your autoaim weapons you need to first hit with a slow firing PPC, so you might go 9 seconds without doing any potential damage whatsoever (two PPC misses).

EVen if you're the worst aim with SRM4s you should still be able to scrape the raven with 2-4 mediums, depending on how many you're currently running.

[Sug]

Bfvmg, on 25 February 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

A buddy and were just talking. (I am at work so cannot test this theory)
We thought that since PPC effects ECM, perhaps a jenner with PPC and Streaks could win against a raven?

I run a TBT-7M with 2 ppcs and 3 ssrms that i use for hunting ravens : /

[One Medic Army]

Well, in an effort to understand the Raven hitboxes, (and in a fit of 3L induced rage) I bought a 3L.
Here's some snaps of the hitboxes as shown in the mechlab.

Oh, and my 3L is named something (in)appropriate, and might be harmful to people sensitive to strong language.


CT hitbox


LT hitbox


Front CT hitbox from the rear


Rear RT hitbox


Rear CT hitbox

So after looking at these, it seems the absolutely worst thing you can do is shoot a raven in the nose, which is the instinctive aim point.
It also confirms what I've noticed, that shooting the rear of a Raven yields the most reliable results.

I think the issue probably stems from how CT and RT/LT overlap along the side of the nose.

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

No. You lose way to much damage potential and have to exclusively rely on convergence and ballistic travel time to use that PPC, as well as all the heat problems that comes with it. The standard D Jenner uses 4 meds, which doesn't even cover the weight of a PPC, so now you're scrapping armor/JJs/Engine to try and get it in there (Though this might be made up for the difference in SRM4s -> ssrm2s).

And now to use your autoaim weapons you need to first hit with a slow firing PPC, so you might go 9 seconds without doing any potential damage whatsoever (two PPC misses).

EVen if you're the worst aim with SRM4s you should still be able to scrape the raven with 2-4 mediums, depending on how many you're currently running.

I put together a web mechlab fit of a PPC+SSRM Jenner-D, you can mount a PPC and 3 Small lasers, 2 SSRMs, but only 1 ton of ammo, no JJs, and a 280XL.

Edited by One Medic Army, 25 February 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[dario03]

Well looking at that it looks like you should shoot them in the back or in the crotch

[Khobai]

I played mostly my founder's Atlas in the tournament. I only used my D-DC when my founder's Atlas was locked.

Had I only used my DDC im sure my win ratio wouldve been much higher. But turns out I still won anyway

[Gaan Cathal]

Fiachdubh, on 25 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Killed a 3L today with my HBK-4G. Saying that I normally go to pains to avoid any type of lights when in my Hunchies as I also usually end up dead when 1 on 1. They are all vicious little killers but I would rank several other lights including the 4X above the 3L as killing machines.

If you're involved in a brawl, Hunchies are actually fairly good at ruining a light mech's day (the many-lasers fits at least). They have a wide spread of firepoints that compensates a lot for the stupid convergence design (I'm becoming more and more convinced this is the issue behined a lot of problems attributed to lag lately) and it hits like a brick. Obviously it's too slow to chase us down, but it's a good mech to chase us off.

One Medic Army, on 25 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Well, in an effort to understand the Raven hitboxes, (and in a fit of 3L induced rage) I bought a 3L.
Here's some snaps of the hitboxes as shown in the mechlab.

Oh, and my 3L is named something (in)appropriate, and might be harmful to people sensitive to strong language.

...

So after looking at these, it seems the absolutely worst thing you can do is shoot a raven in the nose, which is the instinctive aim point.
It also confirms what I've noticed, that shooting the rear of a Raven yields the most reliable results.

http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/

While I don't think the Raven differs much, that is the thread you want to look at for hitboxes, the Mechlab lies. It lies a lot.

[One Medic Army]

Gaan Cathal, on 25 February 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/

While I don't think the Raven differs much, that is the thread you want to look at for hitboxes, the Mechlab lies. It lies a lot.

Seems fairly close.
A bit less piecemeal, but confirms that if you're aiming at the nose your shots are going to be spread between CT and RT/LT. Aim for the groin/legs I suppose.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Khobai, on 25 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

I played mostly my founder's Atlas in the tournament. I only used my D-DC when my founder's Atlas was locked.

Had I only used my DDC im sure my win ratio wouldve been much higher. But turns out I still won anyway

Which is scary. Ontop of that you earned a lot more C-Bills doing it in the big [F]