201 replies to this topic

[TOPGUN Viper]

Mediums Provide a Vital role at the TOP GUN Academy!!!

[Orzorn]

Mokey Mot, on 25 February 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

Third, buffered with SRMs, and DHS'. A spread alpha would not be enough to one hit kill a hunchback, so crits come into play. Now by buffering the side torsos it is the same as if the engine was STD, and only occupied the CT. And in the same instance, if it were an accurate alpha in the back CT, it will destroy a STD engine, and therefor irrelevant.

That's not how it works.

If a side torso is destroyed, you're dead.

Besides that, engines can not be crit destroyed currently. It doesn't do anything.

As for Vlad, you're right that people go to extremes, but keeping it in focus important. People's hyperboles tend to make ti hard to grasp the real points; Mediums torso twist and arm more flexible than their heavier cousins (Hunchback has an absolutely giant twist+arm radius), while packing heavy punches (55 damage is not light damage by any means. Not even my Dragon builds put out that much. Not even a gausscat with 4 mlas puts out that much, although theirs is more pinpoint), and having lower profiles than other mechs (although in some cases, like the Centurion, not as much). You claim they're squishy, but built properly (As in, not being a freaking ***** and stuffing XL engines into an already well armed and armored mech), can last a long time in a fight.

I think it all adds up, bit by bit. Sure, they might be more demanding chassis of their pilots, but I think they're like balanced sword. It doesn't have to look pretty, do huge amount of flashy things, it just needs to work. I think mediums work, and with an efficiency I wish even my Dragon had at times.

You said it yourself; mediums piloted by good players can do well. Well are they underpowered and we're just bringing them up to a higher level, or are they just a higher skill floor chassis (much like the Dragon) that takes more effort before you see its potential? Perhaps not. Perhaps they aren't as strong as they ought to be (although I've no idea, besides smaller models, in which they could be seriously helped along).

Well, if that's the case, just keep that in mind when one of us are backing you up in a medium next drop.

Edited by Orzorn, 25 February 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[Johnny Morgan]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

The role they're "Ment" to fill in the battletech lore is operation buddy to lights and heavier units. They're ment to have the speed to be one of the first mechs on the frontline, the armor to take a few hits while dealing out their own, then they're ment to fold back in with the Heavy's and Assaults to provide additional punch while the bigger machines deal out the real hurt. Mediums provide something of a backbone force.

The ideal medium should be quick, and decently armored with some ok firepower, nothing stellar, they're jacks of all trades. Ment to lay out hurt, then as I said, fold back into the pack and let the bigger stuff shine on what they beat up.

But the problem with this idea in Mechwarrior:Online is everyone wants the kill, no one wants to just put some damage on something and ignore it after... the KILL is king for players. And that's the wrong mindset from an in-universe perspective. but as a game, what can you do?

this is exactly how I pilot my medium mechs and have done fantastic with them.

Take a Hunchback 4P or 4SP, super fun medium. Cicadas are great too.

[slayerkdm]

I agree a pack of HBK's are deadly, but no more deadly, and possibly less so than a pack of Asault, Heavy or Lights. One on one, mediums are very good, almost against any mech. MWO rarely has that happen though, so you find yourself in a long distance fight or brawl, in most cases, regardless of range, you are targeted first, as you are easiest to kill.

This is not TT, and this game rewards damage and laying it out. Lights do it because they can stay alive with speed, Heavys and Assaults have staying power. Poor mediums just dont have the staying power or speed to live long enough to lay out damage.

When this game started, mediums seemed ok, but the power builds, cheese builds whatever you want to call them, are the most devastating on mediums.

I find Im getting forced farther and farther to the edges of battle, that is not the strength of Mediums.

[Major Derps]

Vlad Ward, on 25 February 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Geez, dude. Misinformation overload.

Critical Hits can't kill you. They just knock off your guns and ECM and crap, and occasionally cause your ammo to go boom (who keeps ammo in shoulders?). If your engine gets brought to 0 HP from crits, guess what, it doesn't do anything. Back in "the day", it used to increase your repair bill, but it's never destroyed your Mech.

All a 90 point Alpha has to do is deal ~66% of its damage to one of your side torsos to completely remove you from the fight. That's it. You're down in one shot. That same Alpha will knock pretty much any Medium on its ***, front or back. Whether it's killing it outright, or removing enough of its weapons payload to make it insignificant in a brawl, Mediums need no more than to be sneezed at by an Assault that knows what it's doing to be down for the count.

And last I checked, Assaults can hide behind cover and shoot, too. That's not a Medium only trick or something, just like blocking with arms and twisting isn't either.

Now, I have found nothing to prove what I am saying crit wise is right, so I will accept that I was wrong there. And im a little confused as to where that last part come from... Anyway...
No, no one runs ammo in torso with XL engines, if they do, well they deserve what comes next.
That alpha will knock anything out below heavy, not specifically a mech running XL. And goodluck hitting a target worth braging about killing, with an alpha like that. Long story short, and to the original point I should have made...no you wouldnt kill me with a single alpha, whether I was right or wrong about crits, I wouldnt have myself in that position. And any mech that can deal a 90 point alpha is going to have a hard time dealing with a strafing mech doing 50+ damage each run.

Edited by Mokey Mot, 25 February 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Vlad Ward, on 25 February 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

uh, what?

Buffered with what? The 4SP has huge shoulders. They're not 4G style huge, but still huge. Do you think I'm talking about crits? Do you think crits actually destroy mechs? What?

If anyone, in any Mech, can't hit a target that big moving only 90kph, they are just bads. Take the pug goggles off. Hunchies are not hard to hit.

My exact argument back when they were raving about engine limits.

Because I MUCH preferred dealing with a fast Hunchback over fast Jenner. Look where that got us.

[Johnny Reb]

Well hopefully serious matches (also tonnage limits coming) will institute a class limit on drops( 2-2-2-2 for instance). So meds will need to be included.

[Fenris Krinkovich]

Mediums IN BETA are kind of an uphill climb and I don't recommend anybody start with them IN BETA. I have faith they'll eventually come into their own when tonnage limits come into play. Personally, I use a (sorta) fast Hunchback 4SP to hunt lights and other mediums, and support the heavies effectively. I've even escorted lights and fast mediums on cap duty. That being said, they're the last mech I'd recommend to new players; every other class has either a dedicated role (light and assault) or more armor & firepower (heavy). And I can't stress enough that this is BETA.

[blazarian]

Flankers indeed.

For example hunchback is a killing machine and a great one. I usually get top dmg with it (600 or even more). As I said, mediums are great flankers and huggers. Their speed and firepower make them a real threat and they can chew about any mech fast. 2-3 medium flankers kill everything, if they focus their fire.

So to speak, medium can/is:
- flank
- take quite a bit of dmg all over the comps (shielding is important)
- be agile = the main point of being good
- go close and deal lots of dmg
- be so devastating in small groups

If you ask me, I would say mediums (at least hunchback) are the best class to play because they got both, the speed and the firepower. Assaults are dangerous of course, but you always should outgun enemy anyways. Lights are a challenge for everyone (except some ssrm2 commandos and such), but they can be dealt with SRMs in meds.

If you play solo, the assaults are usually a safe bet (so you can deal the 1k dmg in every match, because your teammates are failing 24/7).

Edited by blazarian, 25 February 2013 - 10:58 PM.

[valkyrie]

Fenris Krinkovich, on 25 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

And I can't stress enough that this is BETA.

Psst - betas are when you're supposed to complain about things. You know, so they get fixed?

[Richard Strong]

Their mix of speed and firepower is just right for me (assuming you upgrade to a big engine and use xp to upgrade speed/acceleration). I consistently do my best in a Yen Lo Wang, a Hunchback 4sp, or most of the Trebuchets. I'm talking 500+ damage and 2+ kills.

I could go into detail about why they are the best (although a good team should definitely have assaults/heavies in addition to mediums) but more importantly I want to respond to people who dismiss the role of harassment/flanking.

What usually happens in a good game for me (most games), is I get away from heavies and assaults when they decide to pay attention to me, and mess them up when they are concentrating on the heavies/assaults on my team. The Trebuchet's jump jets make it especially easy to do this. I see the argument that a heavy could do that job better, and counter it with my stats of doing the best or second best on my team game after game.

Please don't look at my own stats for proof as they are messed up by playing heavies/assaults earlier in my career and not doing as well.

[Khobai]

Quote

This is not TT, and this game rewards damage and laying it out. Lights do it because they can stay alive with speed, Heavys and Assaults have staying power. Poor mediums just dont have the staying power or speed to live long enough to lay out damage.

Correct. So mediums have to play smarter to stay alive. But mediums can still do tremendous damage. Centurion-As with x3 SRM6s can dish out a lot of damage.

[Fenris Krinkovich]

valkyrie, on 25 February 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

Psst - betas are when you're supposed to complain about things. You know, so they get fixed?

You're absolutely right, if complaints are constructive and actually relevant. The overWHELMING number of complaints, rants, and fake ragequits I see on these forums are coming from the attitude that this is a finished product and perceived imbalances are an insult to justice and apple pie. I don't believe mediums, or anything else that doesn't rhyme with "catchcaker", need to be fixed because this is beta and its current form simply does not favor the medium weight class. Beta IS when we are supposed to complain when things are broken, but let's don't forget that it's also when game developers need to experiment with HOW broken those things are and can be. That's all.

[MustrumRidcully]

Vlad Ward, on 25 February 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Flanker is a role that only exists on paper or in people's heads.

So long as the objective is to kill the other guys first, Mechs need to be designed to do that - not sit on the sidelines and "tear away some armor so other people can do the real work". Every conversation about the role of mediums around here ends up going the same way. People think it's okay to do half as much work as the Assault next to them and call it a day.

Well, this works fine when you're weight matched in pugs and the other team has as many functionally useless Mechs as you do, but it falls apart in 8-man play (and presumably the new weight-mismatched ELO MM). When you have the same number of Mechs on each team, each member of your team needs to be able to do as much work as each member of the opposing team.

If that opposing team is made up of 8 Assaults, and your team is made up of 4 Assaults and 4 Mediums, the Mediums can't afford to "play support for the big boys" and shoot every couple of minutes from cover and call it harassing. There aren't enough big boys to support. Each of those Mediums needs to be capable of contributing as much as one of the enemy's Assaults, or they lose. Period.

Otherwise, Lladd hit the nail on the head.

But isn't this just a sign we need weight-matching working again?

Though it is strange that even without weight-matching, it seems light seem to find their role, but Mediums don't. Or is that impression wrong? Is it jus the remainder of lag shield? Or is speed really that valuable? And how can we give Mediums something of this value?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 25 February 2013 - 11:33 PM.

[blazarian]

valkyrie, on 25 February 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

Psst - betas are when you're supposed to complain about things. You know, so they get fixed?

Exactly. That's why I can't understand why some people whine about people who whine about lacking or stupid features in the game.

[Lyrik]

I love my Hunchbacks but without Tonnage limitation or RnR there is no real incentive to drive a medium. Lights are faster and have a smaller profile, heavys can be as fast with much more armor.

The only bonus is that you are more manoeuvrable than heavys and assault. And most of them tend to ignore you xD

I'm for tonnage limitation in CW drops and for a C-Bill bonus when you are driving a Medium xD

[Ewigan]

Mediums are fine as is. I am mastering Cents right now, and next up are my Hunchies, where my SP is already done with elite.
Fitted out right every medium runs around 100 kph, has decent armor and decent damage output.

They can be HUGE damage dealers while being a bit squishy, or as fast as a light without the squishiness.

While we still had match making by weight it always made sense to bring a medium: versatile mechs could fill any role. And your opponent got one, too.
Now it's kind of a different story. With Elo in, and match making by weight out of the window, it all depends on how good a player you are. I seem to have a higher Elo ranking in my mediums, so my mediums seem to still be really valid.

Though every now and then some noob tells me how crappy my loadout on my CNT-AL is. Until they see what i do with it that is

[HolyOne4245]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 February 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

But isn't this just a sign we need weight-matching working again?

Though it is strange that even without weight-matching, it seems light seem to find their role, but Mediums don't. Or is that impression wrong? Is it just the remainder of lag shield? Or is speed really that valuable? And how can we give Mediums something of this value?

I would love the weight-matching to come back into play somehow. Playing a light, I don't seem to run into as many lights these days. You can debate lag shield and hit-boxes all day, but there is no doubt that any light mech worth his/her salt, treasures their speed.

[lsp]

Stuff.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

You don't take them if you don't have too, if you have too you take a zombie centurion that provides a buffer along with your assaults for your heavy snipers to do their work.