131 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Sayyid, on 26 February 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

People MGs and Flamers are anti-Infantry weapons and thus useless in Mechwarrior Online.

In table top they are equal to an AC2, which had its damage multiplied by a factor of 20 in MWO, we are asking the MGs do 1/4 of that so there is a light ballistic option that ....well....does something.

Edited by Yokaiko, 26 February 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Roland]

xenoglyph, on 26 February 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

PGI has an interesting learning process. Their first step is usually to make a huge mistake. Second step is to overreact and nerf things so badly that it's just as bad as before, but in a different way.

Here's the current testing & balancing methodology for flamers:
Stick 9 flamers on a hunchback. Proceed to chase around a noob. If you're able to do any significant damage or make the noob rage quit, the flamer has been buffed too much and must be nerfed some more.

See, what's funny is this...
At one point in the past, the flamer was bugged, and folks would freak out when folks used them. "OMG, EXPLOITER!"

But you know what? Even back then, the flamer was TOTALLY USELESS. Seriously, it did absolutely nothing of value. You could fire them forever without overheating, but it didn't matter, because everything else about them was the same as now. That is, they didn't overheat a target, and they didn't do meaningful damage.

I never understood why anyone complained about the flamer before, because it was such a total garbage weapon anyway. Now it's just a garbage weapon that overheats you when you use it.

[xenoglyph]

Roland, on 26 February 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

See, what's funny is this...
At one point in the past, the flamer was bugged, and folks would freak out when folks used them. "OMG, EXPLOITER!"

But you know what? Even back then, the flamer was TOTALLY USELESS. Seriously, it did absolutely nothing of value. You could fire them forever without overheating, but it didn't matter, because everything else about them was the same as now. That is, they didn't overheat a target, and they didn't do meaningful damage.

I never understood why anyone complained about the flamer before, because it was such a total garbage weapon anyway. Now it's just a garbage weapon that overheats you when you use it.

Yup, I was here. I've said the exact same thing a few times, too. They were useless even back when people screamed ¡exploitz!

Part of the outrage at the time was due to the griefers using them. You couldn't actually take a flameboat out on the field and get a kill. Instead we had a handful of griefers that would teamkill a noob at spawn with them. A couple of my only teamkills were from taking out those guys. One time I think I accidentally took out the victim and the griefer, oops.

Once we have an auto-ban system in place for x amount of teamkills in y amount of time hopefully we can have the old flamers back.

Edited by xenoglyph, 26 February 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[SpartanFiredog317]

.... Just break the timeline and give me Rotary Autocannons. Played MW4 Mercs the other night, put a crap ton of RAC2s on an annihilator....... it was amazing. ....Also, give me something that can fit 4 UAC5s with enough ammo to last a match, dakka dakka heaven.

[Vermaxx]

Spartan...the Cataphract 4X is the closest to that bill coming for some time. If the Jagermech hard points in the spreadsheet are correct, it won't dislodge either Cata as first choice gun mechs. They've also said they intentionally want to avoid some of the things that happened in previous games with high rate of fire weapons being overused.

That being said, the machine gun could never be overpowered. Even doing two damage per second with no cool down, it still only does two damage per second, with a max of four on any mech. Just like a laser, the "lead beam" would have to stay on target for a full second to do all that damage, or all to once place.

People have cited the "dps" of the small laser as lower than that. Depends how you do the math. A small laser does three damage in half a second. It just has a cool down. The machine gun has no cool down, so all the balance comes in the beam.

I want a gun that either does the damage in a significantly shorter beam, with a cool down, or a significantly higher damage per projectile...even if they choose to lower the projectile rate of fire. The gun is not useful, and someone keeps spending time to come up with ways to both improve the weapon, and entice people to use them.

PGI has ultimate control over this game. MW4 had problems because "hard points" were simply the original number of slots your mech had taken up by the weapon. Ie, an Annihilator had a billion potential machine guns. Frankly so did a Hunchback. I will be shocked if a mech ever shows up with more than four ballistic slots.

There is no reason to keep with this excuse of previous game balance issues in OTHER TITLES as the reason machine guns and flamers must be carefully monitored. Only flamers have the potential to be dangerous in this game system. They need to be useful, or they should be removed so we can admit small mechs with a dedicated cannon are liabilities in most circumstances.

[shintakie]

I would actually say that the max ballistics we will see on a mech is 6. Chances of the Pirannha are slim to nonexistant, but the Fire Ant is still a possibility (I so want a Fire Ant)

[Vermaxx]

I agree, probably never more than six ballistic. The Piranha is a year off by the timetable and EVEN THEN it is a Clan mech and we have no clear info on when CW is coming, let alone how clan tech will be distributed.

Six machine guns belting out two damage per second is only 12 damage per second. Even if they all hit the same exact point of impact (which they don't seem to do now based on the graphics), the best you are ever going to hit for is twelve damage. You are much more likely to spread it.

Incidentally, we already have machine gun arrays. They all fire at the same time and aim point by the way the game already works.

[Chavette]

Sometimes I feel like you'd have to put a knife to these guys necks to have em do something logical, like the most obvious and wisest choice is most far-fetched and taboo one for them.

See ECM, MG, Flamer.

Edited by Chavette, 26 February 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Someone had suggested a couple of interesting ideas (even better when engine and gyro crits are in)
Wang with AC20 and 2 flamers, it is fast and manuverable able to flank, penetrate, and burn everything important.
Same with a HBK-4G, it is slower, but an AC20, 2xMG, (and maybe a flamer or two) will clean you out faster than a fire hose colonic.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 26 February 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[Liquidx]

Vermaxx, on 25 February 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

A machine gun did two damage to "mech armor." It was not a gimp-arsed weapon that required you to fire the entire turn and spread that two damage over the entire enemy mech.

You mean the way the game and opposing players react in real time is not to your liking?

face it. Lasers hit 1 location in battletech as well, they can now wash over a whole torso. Having better aim makes the weapon better. This may be something to look into.

I have a friend who runs around in his 4? machine gun spider, with the only energy hardpoint dedicated to tag. Somehow he still gets at least a kill per game. It's pretty deadly when something has exposed armor. He doesn't top the damage chart by any means, but he has fun playing that mech, and he is definitely effective.

[Vermaxx]

If you're referring to some kind of special for both guns to bypass armor, that is not a solution. That is broken, and does nothing to further the discussion. I cannot support a game exploiting mechanic to fix these systems.

They don't need to have a chance to avoid armor, because nothing had that chance in tabletop other than the infamous through armor critical hit location roll. That doesn't belong in a skill based first person game. The guns need to be viable against an armored target, like every other weapon system.

One simple fix - turn them into a small laser that does two damage. Same fire duration, same cool down. Fixes both from a damage standpoint, and NEVER eclipses the small laser.

The heat transfer mechanic on flamers is something I don't even want to get into, because it is grossly more complex.

[Roland]

xenoglyph, on 26 February 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Part of the outrage at the time was due to the griefers using them. You couldn't actually take a flameboat out on the field and get a kill. Instead we had a handful of griefers that would teamkill a noob at spawn with them.

I don't see how that was even possible. Flamers have always done trivial damage.

I'm pretty certain that I've never been killed with flamers, even when they generated no heat to the user. Even 9 flamer hunchbacks were just joke builds. I mean, it's funny to see them shooting fire all over the place, but they aren't dangerous... I don't see how they could have team-killed anyone with them.

[Vermaxx]

Liquidx, on 26 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

You mean the way the game and opposing players react in real time is not to your liking?

face it. Lasers hit 1 location in battletech as well, they can now wash over a whole torso. Having better aim makes the weapon better. This may be something to look into.

I have a friend who runs around in his 4? machine gun spider, with the only energy hardpoint dedicated to tag. Somehow he still gets at least a kill per game. It's pretty deadly when something has exposed armor. He doesn't top the damage chart by any means, but he has fun playing that mech, and he is definitely effective.

No, he isn't. He gets a kill based on someone else's work, unless you can show us soloing another mech. He would be much better with four small lasers. Then he might actually be able to solo people.

[LogicSol]

<didn't really read thread>
In truth, we can't really judge the effectiveness of the recent changes until engines can be crit out.

[Vermaxx]

I've "killed" with machine guns too. The pulse lasers did all the work, the machine guns just got the last puddly hit.

And that was before the crit change. They've always been technically capable of a kill. They've never been worth 1.5 tons.

[Liquidx]

Vermaxx, on 26 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

No, he isn't. He gets a kill based on someone else's work, unless you can show us soloing another mech. He would be much better with four small lasers. Then he might actually be able to solo people.

he's worth it purely for the tag and chaos he causes. When he starts plinking away at a mech, they *always* switch to him.

I guess I just don't think that kills per match are the only way to measure the effectiveness of a player.

[LogicSol]

Vermaxx, on 26 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

No, he isn't. He gets a kill based on someone else's work, unless you can show us soloing another mech. He would be much better with four small lasers. Then he might actually be able to solo people.

A mech with 4 MGs isn't meant to "solo" someone.
just saying.

[Vermaxx]

I wasn't allowed to use "teamwork" as the solution to streaks. You aren't allowed to cite teamwork as the way to make machine guns worthwhile.

Every other single weapon in the game functions appreciably on its own. Sinking an entire mech as a distraction does not make the weapons viable. He could do the same thing with four tags, or srm2s, or get ignored with small lasers and actually put up some damage.

This is a game about damage and kills and winning. You get more damage, which increases the likelihood of kills and winning, by not using machine guns. They are not viable. Your friend does not contribute to the kills in any mathematical way, he is a decoy. A pink mech with no guns might do the same thing.

[Halfbreed]

Josef Koba, on 25 February 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I'm not sure what kind of MG weighs a half-ton, and I don't know why the ammo doesn't come in packages less than a ton.

If I remember correctly the a signal "Machine Gun" on a mech is actually 4 .50 caliber machine guns that are linked and fire together. At lest thats what I remember from MW4 and some of the books. So yeah I could see 4 .50 cals being half a ton. The ammo on the other hand...... even if it was 4000 rounds (1000 for each gun) I don't see that being a ton.

[Vermaxx]

Nothing about the machine gun makes sense. Nothing about battletech makes sense.

Sarna has a list of all the book listed name brand guns. The only ones mentioned with a caliber are 20mm. The original ammo was two hundred shots per ton. That could have been thousands of rounds if one assumed every mg fired ten or more bullets per turn.

None of that matters. They weigh a half ton and are supposed to do two damage. They could be useful as either a small AC2, or a reworked small laser. PGI chooses to make them a really awesome sounding and looking waste of space, that rewards you for waiting around to gank someone who was already going to die.