61 replies to this topic

[Stringburka]

blinkin, on 27 February 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

As far as i am concerned the game seems hollow. there is nothing to consistently challenge me anymore. this is one of the primary reasons why i miss RR.

To some degree I feel the same way. But I don't feel R&R will change that. What is missing is content and continuity, mostly, at least for me. Community warfare, I hope, will bring both of those.

The thing is, if certain models or variants are limited to players that are very skilled or have cash, the amount of pay to win drastically increases. If the best builds are expensive to run, then those with cash will run them as well as a minority that simply is very skilled, while new players that aren't that skilled will just die a lot.

When the ability to make cash is based upon the skill of the pilot and the power of the 'mech, and the power of the 'mech is based on the ability to make cash, you get a loop where unskilled players will just get their arses kicked every time because they are inferior in both skill and 'mech, and thus they'll never get cash to even out the 'mech disadvantage. An R&R system favors the competitive, highly skilled player (or the one with much RL cash!) but punishes the new and unskilled one.

This can partly be adjusted by a good ELO system, but only partly.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm fine with the best 'mechs being expensive to run as long as you don't end up with less than you started with. I'm not fine with it being directly tied to the skill of the pilot. That's why I support an upkeep cost rather than a R&R system.

Edited by Stringburka, 27 February 2013 - 02:37 AM.

[G0SSY]

I think the problem with the R&R was that everyone was treated equally in payout no matter what mech you were in, leading to the big vs small, ballistic / missiles vs lasers.

I agree with some in that removing it altogether essentially removes a "component" of challenge in the gameplay, there is simply no disincentive to play risky builds. I also agree that without proper balancing of rewards / costs, it leads to exploitation and simply been un-fun.

The key point is:

• If you play a really bad game, you not gonna get much, and vice versa, If you play a really good game, you should get a lot more.

With this game, we have the unique opportunity to completely change the element of the game we play, as much as we want, big to small, without having to "unlock it", right from the get go.



Progression is per mech, not upgrading to "better mechs", which is nothing like pretty much every other F2P / MMO. Yet this game uses identical currency systems to these. This is where I think it went a bit wrong. BTW: arguing an assault mech is better than a light is a null argument, considering "role warfare".

Everyone gets the same rewards for "doing things", no matter what mech you pilot. Yet we have a huge cost difference between the cheapest and the most expensive using the "free" currency.

If the cost to repair a fully disabled stock mech (100%) is an absolute percentage of some arbitrary cost (percentage of purchase price?), then the developers know exactly how much it costs to repair it, versus the rewards given at the conclusion of a match.
The base reward post match could have a multiplier applied on a per mech basis to bring it between 60-90% of the cost to completely repair said mech. The lower range might be for a loss, the higher for a win.
The ultimate aim would be:

• If you do nothing an entire match but get blown up, you lose money whether you win or lose.
  
• If you run around and deal some damage, get a few assists, maybe cap a flag, and die, you'll make a tidy sum regardless of winning or losing.
  
• If you run around, tormenting everyone with your mad skills, and winning it solo for your team, why shouldn't you be rewarded?

This doesn't take into account ammunition costs, though. My idea would be maybe when you are "pubbing", ammo is free. If you are playing in community warfare, you would then have to pay for ammo. But since you are competing it what is supposed to be a higher difficulty contest, the rewards would also be greater, to pay for the ammo. But then, you don't get that extra reward if you lose...

My only hole I think is if someone does nothing an entire match but still win taking no damage, there might need to be a system in place scale the base reward multiplier on how much damage, percent wise, you did actually take, so it you took no damage, you only get the base reward.

Edited by G0SSY, 27 February 2013 - 04:43 AM.

[loliza]

MWO is a game still in beta, pgi and piranah or w/e, need to make as many ppl hooked on the game before the final release build however the r&r featture is heavily favoring players who have been playing for months and doesnt encourage new players, atm new players are very nicely welcomed into the game with the cadet bonus u want to encourage new players not scare them away

[MustrumRidcully]

G0SSY, on 27 February 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

My only hole I think is if someone does nothing an entire match but still win taking no damage, there might need to be a system in place scale the base reward multiplier on how much damage, percent wise, you did actually take, so it you took no damage, you only get the base reward.

But in the end, this leads to this:
1) You give people money for taking damage.
2) Then you take some (or all, or even more) of it for the repairs.

Why even bother?

But it's also the only way it makes sense. Mercenary Companies cannot exist if:
- Game typically ends with one side losing all mechs
- Repair Cost not being covered by the contract.

It just doesn't work. Mercs would only ever take:
- Milk Runs ("Hey, take your Atlas and check out if that Agro Mech has really been refitted with a small laser by the terrorist")
- Extreme Overpaid Jobs. ("Hey, if you try to beat that lance of Assaults, we give you money to buy two lances of Assaults.")

Everyhting else ends with a mercenary company that's out of money, out of business and out of mech pilots after a job that went sideways.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 February 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Max Liao]

Constantly running assaults should cause the player to go into debt.

Mediums are the workhorses of Inner Sphere armies, they are the majority. Assaults are too rare and expensive to waste on anything that not vitally important. If R&R can bring that to fruition, then it has my support.

[Adrienne Vorton]

honestly? right now,no...

if we get something like a good and fair economics system with planetary conquest, then okay...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 27 February 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Yes, but it has to be done properely, not like we had before.

[focuspark]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 February 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

But in the end, this leads to this:
1) You give people money for taking damage.
2) Then you take some (or all, or even more) of it for the repairs.

Why even bother?

But it's also the only way it makes sense. Mercenary Companies cannot exist if:
- Game typically ends with one side losing all mechs
- Repair Cost not being covered by the contract.

It just doesn't work. Mercs would only ever take:
- Milk Runs ("Hey, take your Atlas and check out if that Agro Mech has really been refitted with a small laser by the terrorist")
- Extreme Overpaid Jobs. ("Hey, if you try to beat that lance of Assaults, we give you money to buy two lances of Assaults.")

Everyhting else ends with a mercenary company that's out of money, out of business and out of mech pilots after a job that went sideways.

^^ this... and since there's no PVE element, there's no other way to bring in cash. So nobody is allowed to cite EVE Online in this argument.

Edited by focuspark, 27 February 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[blinkin]

loliza, on 27 February 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

MWO is a game still in beta, pgi and piranah or w/e, need to make as many ppl hooked on the game before the final release build however the r&r featture is heavily favoring players who have been playing for months and doesnt encourage new players, atm new players are very nicely welcomed into the game with the cadet bonus u want to encourage new players not scare them away

the current system already heavily favors players who have the advantage of being here longer. as it is new players are nicely welcomed by fields full of heavy mechs, assault mechs, xl engines, and weapons that vomit ammo everywhere because there is no reason not to do so.

yes we give them a cadet bonus for walking into matches and dieing repeatedly because they are likely outskilled and almost certainly out classed by super expensive mechs that are just outright better. anyone who claims that all mechs are equal should spend a few days in trial mechs or any sort of unaltered stock mech. i think it is bad design to just tell a player that they need to die 20 times before they are allowed to play the game with everyone else.

with repair and rearm the field becomes much more mixed and the new players get a more fair fight.

[Deathlike]

Stringburka, on 27 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

You might want to take a look at this.

I'll have to think it through more to be sure.

TBH, I think losing a match miserably (especially when you are past the cadet bonus), should still keep you in the positive.. at the very minimum enough to pay off for the repairs. Although I doubt competitive players would do this in general, but intentionally tanking to be able to get a free repair would suck just as much.

blinkin, on 27 February 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

yes we give them a cadet bonus for walking into matches and dieing repeatedly because they are likely outskilled and almost certainly out classed by super expensive mechs that are just outright better. anyone who claims that all mechs are equal should spend a few days in trial mechs or any sort of unaltered stock mech. i think it is bad design to just tell a player that they need to die 20 times before they are allowed to play the game with everyone else.

Punishing people in trial mechs is more of an indication that we need to actually make them better somehow, like some sort of hidden bonus for using them, but not so high that they never purchase the mech. I was kinda jokingly suggest some sort of ECM for them, but would equate to some lame feature... and at this point, they need all the help they can get. The point of the trial system is to learn if they want to continue playing this game and/or what style they would prefer to go with. Then again, that's what the forums are for... for the first mech purchase.

[Talrich]

I didn't mind R&R, but it didn't add much to the game, yet put off new players.

It's better that it's gone.

[blinkin]

Talrich, on 05 March 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

I didn't mind R&R, but it didn't add much to the game, yet put off new players.

It's better that it's gone.

• reduces bots
  
• (eventually) balances clan tech
  
• limits number of high end expensive mechs that punish new players that do not have money or a good mech yet
  
• keeps the field mixed between expensive and cheap mechs so that you don't spend all of your time fighting one mech
  
• adds immersion to the game (makes you feel more like a real merc)
  
• brings back the challenge in the game for me

i think being pummeled on a regular basis by players who have better mechs by virtue of just being around longer puts new players off more. my 11,000,000cbill catapult c4 is by far better than any cheaper build. before i was forced to work hard to maintain it for battle, now any moron can run one just like it without any penalty. the only requirement is that you have been around long enough to make 11,000,000cbills. <-new players do not start with 11,000,000cbills. new players are likely to get tired of being slaughtered repeatedly before they get a mech that can compete and just simply quit.


when RR was around before there were not very many complaints about "splatcats" because there were only a handful of people who were skilled enough to use them without draining their cbills dry. now there is always at least one thread on the front page complaining about these builds in some way.

RR was one of the important balancing features in the game before.

Edited by blinkin, 06 March 2013 - 12:56 AM.

[Lheo]

The LAST thing we need is MORE chickenplay....or light mech wars online...because its cheap.
R & R is the greatest mistake in Gaming History, it leads to a coward Gameplay.

[DocBach]

Add repair and rearm back as a money sink, offer "insurance" packages that cost MC to get rid of it.

[Syllogy]

No.

[Gladewolf]

I think that R&R should be added as portion of the meta-game(community warfare) to help track House resources used and assist in victory condition calculations....I don't believe it does us any favors simply being charged arbatraily for repairs. As an example, let's say that Steiner wins a tough fight on the battlefield against Marik, but the Steiner force constisted of 30% more assault mechs.....shouldn't their be a way to reflect the cost of conducting warfare in such a fasion? So while Steiner gets the planet, they have to be carefull to ensure that "winning" also makes sense on the balance sheets.
This could even provide a natural limitation on even the "best house" simply expanding out of control. Having to pay all the logistics costs of a war campain can be monstrously expensive.

[Eddrick]

I would like to see the return of R&R. Use cost is one of the advantages of Energy Weapons.

Right now. Energy Weapons are "not very viable" to the competitiive crowd. The use cost of Energy Weapons is one of the reasons to take them over others weapons types.

[DocBach]

Eddrick, on 06 March 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

I would like to see the return of R&R. Use cost is one of the advantages of Energy Weapons.

Right now. Energy Weapons are "not very viable" to the competitiive crowd. The use cost of Energy Weapons is one of the reasons to take them over others weapons types.

Actually, this is why the Clans were suppose to have lost Tukayyid.. they didn't bring energy weapons for the long haul, they brought heavy ballistic weapons that favored their quick to the punch tactics, which weren't suited for long duration campaigns.

[UberFubarius]

I do see a somewhat handwavy way of explaining the lack of repair and rearm. Noting the low amount of C-Bill we get, the argument can go as followed.
1. Repair - In this Mechwarrior "continuity", there's an unofficial insurance company who takes a fixed amount of money from the contracting parties to insured the mechs. Hence why you don't lost money when you lose your mech, nor do you "get" money by keeping it not-destroyed. It serves to provide incentive to hired guns to fight as hard as they possibly can.
2. Rearm - The cost to rearm a mech is already paid for by the contractor. Who, probably, will hire a mixture of mechs that range from heavy ammo usage to no ammo usage.

With the upcoming Community Warfare, the repair/rearm effect could differentiate between them.
Lonewolf - Same as now, low C-Bill gain (50~150k per match), no repair cost, no rearm cost.

Faction War
According to DevBlog "The battle for control over faction planets is a simple war of attrition. The faction with the most influence over a particular planet occupies it. By virtue of simply competing in online matches, faction players contribute influence points to target planets."
One way to have rearm-repair effect outcome could be have changes in influence point based on C-Bill worth. Essentially for each battle, the C-Bill costs to each side are tallied (component lost, mech lost, ammo-fired, etc). With influence point gained/lost based on that C-Bill cost (naturally, the side with the least C-Bill cost would gain influence).

[Tesunie]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 February 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

But in the end, this leads to this:
1) You give people money for taking damage.
2) Then you take some (or all, or even more) of it for the repairs.

Why even bother?

But it's also the only way it makes sense. Mercenary Companies cannot exist if:
- Game typically ends with one side losing all mechs
- Repair Cost not being covered by the contract.

It just doesn't work. Mercs would only ever take:
- Milk Runs ("Hey, take your Atlas and check out if that Agro Mech has really been refitted with a small laser by the terrorist")
- Extreme Overpaid Jobs. ("Hey, if you try to beat that lance of Assaults, we give you money to buy two lances of Assaults.")

Everyhting else ends with a mercenary company that's out of money, out of business and out of mech pilots after a job that went sideways.

Actually, salvage rights was what drove most merc contacts. Getting any salvage they caused have them new mechs, spare parts, and material to preform repairs. Extra parts could be sold for more money, do destroyed mechs replaced with a salvaged mech. Rarely did a merc get free ammo and repairs with a contract. Read some of the novels that involve mercs. Most of them say a merc will fight for salvage rights on a contract, though finding easy work for good post also was a well sought after contact as well.


As for R&R, I'd like to see its return, but maybe not in the same way it was before. Then again most IS mechs don't have a lot of most tech for a reason, expensive and hard to repair/replace. Would love to see more cheaper mechs being played with fewer upgrades. I always feel like I'm cheating somehow when I put an XL engine in, or double heat sinks...