39 replies to this topic

[longwang]

Hi all,

Generally, I have been disappointed with the BEAGLE Active Probe. In the table top, it operated as a counter to ECM. Now, there is absolutely no reason to mount it.

My preference would be to not let BEAGLE counter ECM completely, but allow things like the ability to still get a missile lock, even if it takes a bit longer.

The real reason for this post: How are sensors affected with the new modules & BEAGLE together? Can they detect a mech beyond 250m if it has ECM? Detect mechs beyond 1km?

If I wanted to run some tests, how would I know?

[DocBach]

You actually got things way backwards.

Beagle is suppose to do more, ECM is suppose to negate the advantages bestowed by Beagle.

[Antonio]

Yeah, I don't know why they decided to give BAP hardly any of its abilities but decided to give ECM powers it does not have. I know they wanted to make missiles less effective but they couldve fixed that by improving AMS or tuning missile damage.

[EmeraldSongbird]

I have the bagel equipped now and quite frankly, I have seen no increase in performance on anything my mech does.

[BlackWidow]

Doobles, on 26 February 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

I have the bagel equipped now and quite frankly, I have seen no increase in performance on anything my mech does.

I have a bagel with cream cheese and capers and see daily performance increase with one of these bad boys equipped.

Edited by BlackWidow, 26 February 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

They should have just given them abilities to cancel each other out:

ECM: -Sensor on Enemy / Longer Lock time for enemy
Bagel: +Sensor on you / Shorter lock time for you

Also, cream cheese on bagel

[Cairbre]

Bagels allow me to get more lox on target. No other piece of equipment is quite so useful in smearing anything that isn't equipped with ECM. It is a force multiplier for missiles, and useful for snipers who want to know where to shoot their target before unleashing that first salvo.

[Yiazmat]

^ Lol, bagel....

OP: If you have BAP on you get a small window of targeting ECM mechs somewhere in the 200m range. If you have BAP AND Advanced Sensor Range mod on, I've targeted ravens in my Stalker at almost 300 and give them a full 2 volley of Streaks before they decide this is not the Stalker they're looking for, and try to run away (then I PPC them). BAP does help. If you have any sort of lock on missiles, I will always recommend equipping BAP, it helps you lock faster.

[Jabilo]

Beagle Active Probe does not affect missile lock on times.

[Kreisel]

Yiazmat, on 26 February 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

^ Lol, bagel....

OP: If you have BAP on you get a small window of targeting ECM mechs somewhere in the 200m range. If you have BAP AND Advanced Sensor Range mod on, I've targeted ravens in my Stalker at almost 300 and give them a full 2 volley of Streaks before they decide this is not the Stalker they're looking for, and try to run away (then I PPC them). BAP does help. If you have any sort of lock on missiles, I will always recommend equipping BAP, it helps you lock faster.

The patch notes said nothing about BAP effecting ECM range, only Advanced Sensor Mod. That being said is BAP DOES effect the range now but it just wasn't listed in the patch notes... I think it's something a LOT of people would be interested in. Advanced sensor mod should let you detect them at 250, you can detect them at 181-200 with no special equipment, but the window is too small to DO anything with it.

My current understanding though, is with 2 modules you can do everything that BAP does (minus ock on shut down targets under 180) for no tonnage, and it actually effects ECM unlike BAP.

Edited by Kreisel, 26 February 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Chunkylad]

They improved ECM yet just imported BAP. Personally, I would like to see ECM available on most mechs but get nerfed into the ground and act the way it did in MW4. Still made it a pain for missile boats to find them, but didn't make having a team of them hard as hell to fight.

[urmamasllama]

this made me realize why doesn't ecm do the opposite of tag and bap by increasing lock-on time(and info gather time) instead of nullifying it completely?(to enemies inside the field the one carrying it should be a bit harder to target )

Edited by urmamasllama, 26 February 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[DocBach]

Chunkylad, on 26 February 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

They improved ECM yet just imported BAP.

They actually left out quite a bit of function from Beagle, and rolled ECM's third mode from TacOps into one supermode.

[Roland]

DocBach, on 26 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

You actually got things way backwards.

Beagle is suppose to do more, ECM is suppose to negate the advantages bestowed by Beagle.

Well, this is somewhat over simplified, I think.

A big part of ECM is that it breaks C3, which lets mechs share targeting information. In MWO, every mech essentially has a super-version of C3... I think that this, in itself, is part of what has resulted in ECM being so powerful. In many ways, since C3 is included in everything, essentially to the degree that C3 targeting is fundamental to how the whole sensor model works, ECM's breaking of the C3 has resulted in it breaking the whole sensor model.

Some changes to the whole sensor model might be required to bring things back into a workable state.

Some aspects, like the ability to relay data, is a very cool thing. It adds in a lot of depth.

Other aspects, like automatically getting little red squares that show up just because you are kind of glancing at a target, is significantly less cool.

Also, I really miss the interplay between BAP and ECM, combined with active and passive radar modes that we had in MW4.

On some level, MWO's sensor model is deeper.. but on another level, is overly simplified.

[DocBach]

We don't have C3 yet. Target sharing is a function 'Mech communications and sensors can do without a C3 network. Ie, you can spot for indirect fire without requiring a C3 system; you are sharing targeting data for the LRM mech to fire, not calling in a polar fire mission,

Beagle is suppose to be the active sensors of Battletech. Hence Beagle Active probe.

[Roland]

DocBach, on 26 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

We don't have C3 yet. Target sharing is a function 'Mech communications and sensors can do without a C3 network. Ie, you can spot for indirect fire without requiring a C3 system; you are sharing targeting data for the LRM mech to fire, not calling in a polar fire mission,

Beagle is suppose to be the active sensors of Battletech. Hence Beagle Active probe.

Is that true? I'm not a huge battletech fan, so I'm not super familiar with the nuances of the rules.

I had though though that you needed to have a C3 network set up between mechs in order for them to relay targeting data back and forth, which seems to be what the normal sensor model in MWO is doing. (i.e. my jenner can target someone, and then everyone on my team can see exactly the same data on that target as I can)

What do you envision the C3 system doing in MWO, beyond what we can already do automatically?

[Mechrophilia]

Cairbre, on 26 February 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Bagels allow me to get more lox on target. No other piece of equipment is quite so useful in smearing...

Bagle also allows you to savor creaming cheese-mechs.

[DocBach]

C3 gives a targeting bonus in the board game.

Right now you can only target 'Mechs friendlies currently have targeted. C3 could allow you to target any enemy 'Mech they can detect on sensors, regardless if the spotting 'Mech is targeting them.

ie, your scout is not on a C3 network and detects the entire enemy team, however he can only share the location of the single 'Mech he has targeted over radar

if the scout was on the C3 network, he could share his sensor data with all the other 'Mechs in the C3 network

[Roland]

That's an interesting idea, although some previous dev info has suggested that the ability to relay more than one target to your friendlies would be accomplished via modules.

Certainly though, what you describe is a potentially useful implementation of C3.

[Fut]

Here's what BAP actually does:

Quote

BEAGLE ACTIVE PROBE (BAP)
Increases targeting range by 25%
Increases the speed at which more information about the target is displayed by 25%
It allows detection of shut down mechs when within 120m.

Thomas Dziegielewski - Breakdown

It's somewhat useful if you're in a 'Mech with long range capability, but from what I hear the BAP in Battletech was far more useful. It's a shame, really. I hope that it gets a bit of a tweak in the near future.