39 replies to this topic

[Spheroid]

Is regular sensor detection range documented ANYWHERE on this website? All these buffs and bonuses are only referrenced as a percentage boost, which is pretty damn vague.

I have a BP on my 4P and what these values turn out to be probably affect my choice of master module.

Edited by Spheroid, 26 February 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[DocBach]

Thontor, on 26 February 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

In TT, BAP allowed you to detect "hidden" mechs within its 4 hex range.
I'm not sure what defines a "hidden" mech in TT.


In MWO, PGI has interpreted this as BAP giving you the capability to detect and target shut down enemy mechs within 120m.

Not enough, IMO. What if in addition to that, BAP allowed the detection and targeting of enemy mechs that were not in line of sight, within 120m.

So, if you had BAP, you could detect and target that enemy on the other side of the building or hill if its within 120m. Even if neither you nor your teammates have line of sight.

What do you guys think?

Beagle Active Probe is a 360 degree, 120 meter bubble that detects non-hidden 'Mechs, regardless of LOS, and hidden 'Mechs inside LOS. Hidden 'Mechs are 'Mechs obscured by non-hard cover like forests, or shut down 'Mechs.

Yes, Beagle really needs to be able to have this function. It's the whole reason ECM blocks it, to hide movement from a Beagle equipped 'Mech.

[Fut]

EDIT: Nevermind.

Edited by Fut, 26 February 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[Lykaon]

longwang, on 26 February 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Hi all,

Generally, I have been disappointed with the BEAGLE Active Probe. In the table top, it operated as a counter to ECM. Now, there is absolutely no reason to mount it.

My preference would be to not let BEAGLE counter ECM completely, but allow things like the ability to still get a missile lock, even if it takes a bit longer.

The real reason for this post: How are sensors affected with the new modules & BEAGLE together? Can they detect a mech beyond 250m if it has ECM? Detect mechs beyond 1km?

If I wanted to run some tests, how would I know?

What Beagle should do and what we got are very different.

A robustly featured BAP was never introduced while conversley a bloated with features ECM was.

BAP probably should have had some additional features but alas we got a doorstop electronics package when compared to the ECM.

[longwang]

Then it seems most people agree, that BAP could use a bit of tweaking.

[Royalewithcheese]

Maybe BAP could do the sensor bubble thing and increase detection range for ECM mechs? This would make the "BAP doesn't work in ECM bubble" actually mean something, but also introduce a soft counter for ECM stealth.

[UnseenFury]

Nerf ECM
Buff BAP

[Timelordwho]

Thontor, on 26 February 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

In TT, BAP allowed you to detect "hidden" mechs within its 4 hex range.
I'm not sure what defines a "hidden" mech in TT.


In MWO, PGI has interpreted this as BAP giving you the capability to detect and target shut down enemy mechs within 120m.

Not enough, IMO. What if in addition to that, BAP allowed the detection and targeting of enemy mechs that were not in line of sight, within 120m.

So, if you had BAP, you could detect and target that enemy on the other side of the building or hill if its within 120m. Even if neither you nor your teammates have line of sight.

What do you guys think?

4 hexes TT would be 360m in MWO. If beagle let you see ECM shielded mechs within 360m It would actually be useful.

[Icepick]

[

BlackWidow, on 26 February 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

I have a bagel with cream cheese and capers and see daily performance increase with one of these bad boys equipped.

I logged in just to upvote this.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Doobles, on 26 February 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

I have the bagel equipped now and quite frankly, I have seen no increase in performance on anything my mech does.

Is this the bagel that you have equipped?


If so then you are using the wrong equipment.

You want this:

[Larth]

One of the things Beagle did in TT, if I remember right, is it could detect the ECM bubble. So if there was a patch of trees and two mechs passed on either side, the ECM guy would remain unsensorable, but if the BAP bubble intercepted the ECM bubble, it would detect that ECM was nearby, where as normal sensors would not. The BAP unit wouldn't need to be inside the ECM bubble, just have it's bubble intersect. In fact ECM countered BAP. However, if outside the bubble it was like seeing, but there was this spot in your vision where you were blind. That's how BAP worked, it'd see everything, but where ECM it saw...nothing. Kinda noticable. Was a nice way to prevent ECM units from sneaking by while using 'cover'. That and I think BAP could also detect, within it's range, through terrain non hidden units.

Hidden units were often those powered down or inside buildings (imagine the chaos in River City if we could do this). Oh, and those in level 3 or deeper water, fully submerged.

Now if BAP could detect the 'bubbles' it might help in knowing which direction they are at least. Maybe a different color or the radar just started going blank, everything, terrain included. Just a void. And limited ability to radar through terrain. Be killer for city fighting and scouts. It already does the non-ECM hidden bit. Between those two things, I think it would help.

[80Bit]

On my D-DC I use Beagle and the enhanced sensor module. It noticeably increases the range at which I can target non-ecmed mechs. On river city's upper spawn point, I can stand on the bridge and target enemy mechs as they move across the water at the bottom of the map.

[Chou Senwan]

If Bagel Probes could detect mechs behind cover, that would be stupendously useful for a scout. Nothing's quite as dismaying as rounding a corner into a Splatcat.

Well, maybe rounding a corner into a Raven 3L.

[Solis Obscuri]

Tickdoff Tank, on 26 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Is this the bagel that you have equipped?


If so then you are using the wrong equipment.

You want this:

I have a beagle who actively probes for bagels.

Very useful for scrounging in an MW RPG setting.

[Strum Wealh]

As a more comprehensive listing of what Beagle should be able to do...

• Detect any hidden 'Mech, Combat Vehicle, or Battle Armor - provided said unit was within 120 meters [4 hexes], would have had LOS while within range (that is, not behind a building or hill, or not more than 90 [3 hexes] meters of light woods or 60 meters [2 hexes] of heavy (or mixed) woods between the probe and its target), and was not underwater (Total Warfare, pgs. 100 and 129 and 303)
  
• Alert the user to the presence of ECM jamming (Total Warfare, pg. 134)
  
• Cost 200,000 c-bills (TechManual, pg. 291)
  
• Weigh 1.5 tons and consume 2 critical spaces (TechManual, pg. 342)
  
• Be rendered useless in a region characterized by electromagnetic interference (Tactical Operations, pg. 55)
  
• Aid in target acquisition and aiming against an opponent in the probe's range [to the point of reducing the to-hit requirements] (Tactical Operations, pg. 99)
  
• Gather [additional] information about a target's status and condition (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 219)
  
• Potentially reveal the presence of minefields (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 210)
  
• Increase the likelihood of distinguishing a Ghost Target from an actual target, and vice versa (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 102)
  
• Expand overall detection range to 1080 meters [36 hexes] under optimal conditions (Tactical Operations, pg. 222)
  
• Provide a small bonus against Guardian ECM sensor jamming [Guardian gets only a +4 bonus against Beagle, in contrast to Guardian's +5 bonus vs standard 'Mech sensors - representing an ~83% chance of being jammed for Beagle, versus a ~92% chance of being jammed for unaugmented standard sensors] (Tactical Operations, pg. 223)
  
• Monitor a distant area (up to 2 kilometers [67 hexes] away) through up to 2 Remote Sensors (Tactical Operations, pgs. 224 and 375)
  
• Fails completely (by explicit rule) to detect opponents mounting a Null Signature System [permanently LosTech] (Tactical Operations, pg. 336)
  
• Must be within 30 meters [the adjacent hex] to detect a vehicle using a stealth chute (Tactical Operations, pg. 349)
  
• Fails completely (by explicit rule) to detect opponents mounting a Void Signature System [available in 3070] (Tactical Operations, pg. 349)
  
• Can be homed in on by Anti-Radiation Missiles [available to Clans in 3057, available to IS in 3066] (Tactical Operations, pg. 368)

For comparison, what Beagle in MWO actually does...

• Weighs 1.5 tons, consumes 2 critical spaces, and has 10 hitpoints
  
• Costs 400,000 c-bills
  
• 25% increased sensor range (to 1000 meters)
  
• 25% decreased "target level acquisition time" (the time it takes to collect detailed target information ('Mech variant and loadout, current damage status and distribution, etc))
  
• Allows targeting of unpowered 'Mechs within 120m

-----

Of note is that both standard sensors and in BattleTech featured 360-degree detection (Tactical Operations, pg. 221); adding the capability is not something intrinsic to Beagle, though it too featured 360-degree detection in BattleTech.

Would someone knowledgeable (and/or with a computer that can currently run MWO ) be able to check the following things:
Can Beagle detect a (non-ECM) target that is completely, 100% submerged in water (assuming the current maps allow it)?
What is the default "target level acquisition time", and how significant is the 25% decrease imparted by Beagle?
Has anyone noticed any terrain effects that may have gone undocumented with regard to Beagle's operation - will enough (any) trees between a Beagle-equipped 'Mech and a target obscure the latter from the former?

Also, of note is that many of beagle's capabilities, listed above, require interaction with elements not included in MWO at this time - there are not (yet?) any Remote Sensors (the "Detectors" mentioned in Dev Blog 02) to link to, nor are there (yet?) any minefields to detect, nor are there (yet?) ghost targets to see through, nor are there (yet?) ARAD missiles or EMI regions to worry about, nor are there (yet?) NullSig or VoidSig systems or stealthed dropchutes to worry about.

That is, a significant factor in "the issue with Beagle" and why it seems so "underpowered" is that a substantial number of its canonical abilities require interacting with items and systems that currently do not exist in MWO.
As a result, Beagle's current abilities in MWO, limited as they are, largely represent the subset of Beagles canonical abilities that can be exhibited until these other items and systems can be brought into play.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 26 February 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[Khobai]

This is what BAP should do:

1) increase sensor range by 25%
2) increase detailed info speed by 25%
3) detect ALL enemy mechs within 120m (including mechs behind you or mechs behind buildings/terrain)
4) increase the range you can detect ECM mechs in the same manner as the advanced sensor module
5) "warning targeted" should be an ability granted by BAP, BAP should also tell you if you're being tagged.

[Chou Senwan]

It'd be nice if trees actually did block sensors. There's that hill near the 'drainage pipes' in Forest Colony, which is covered in trees. Every time I try popping up there to shoot, I can't see a thing, but enemies can pepper me with LRMs and PPCs. It seems like reversing the benefits of cover.

Edited by Chou Senwan, 27 February 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Sephlock]

BAP should disable enemy ECM and replace the ECM user's hud with a translucent, upraised middle finger.

[Sephlock]

Or better yet, it should continuously play this while their ECM is in jamming mode:

[Everything Bagel]

I approve of bagels