132 replies to this topic

[KhanCipher]

Alvor, on 26 February 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

To summarize if using Canon BT/MW:
Enforce the Dispossessed status/penalty & repair/reload costs.

*sigh* a "competitive game" (well, it's not that... yet) should never ever have any R&R, because all it'll end up being is that the good get richer, and better equipment. while the bad get poorer, and are forced to compete in a bad mech... i'd rather not go back to the "premium only, or lose money builds" system.

and while we're at it, R&R is also a huge temptation for your enemy to be a total douche and destory every single part on your mech before killing you, and i know i don't want to deal with that when i know i'm in a match that i'm going to lose.

[Kain]

Did someone already mentioned:

Defend your Base !!

seriously quit whining about capping, it is a valid mechanic to win a game, how annoying it sometimes can be.
Why should both teams set up their whole team on an ideal line all on the frontline, when your back and base is completely exposed.. This is 3050 not 1815 or WW1...

[Jazzblaster]

But running around in an Alpine conquest chasing one spider after blowing up the rest of her teammates is sooo much fun.

[Kobold]

KhanCipher, on 27 February 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

*sigh* a "competitive game" (well, it's not that... yet) should never ever have any R&R, because all it'll end up being is that the good get richer, and better equipment. while the bad get poorer, and are forced to compete in a bad mech... i'd rather not go back to the "premium only, or lose money builds" system.

and while we're at it, R&R is also a huge temptation for your enemy to be a total douche and destory every single part on your mech before killing you, and i know i don't want to deal with that when i know i'm in a match that i'm going to lose.

This, so much.

Seriously, repair and rearm and trying to use economy to balance things is A TERRIBLE IDEA in a PvP game. It only makes sense in single player, PvE, where resource management is an issue.

[Critical Fumble]

Kobold, on 27 February 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

This, so much.

Seriously, repair and rearm and trying to use economy to balance things is A TERRIBLE IDEA in a PvP game. It only makes sense in single player, PvE, where resource management is an issue.

In CW, maybe. As a amount you put down beforehand rather than a continuous bleeding effect, to make people think about the efficiency of what they're doing rather than just running out with whatever you can min/max to death.

[Adrienne Vorton]

ShadowDarter, on 26 February 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

DEFEND YOUR BASE!!!!

its simple, easy and will improve your health...

had a couple of very good and fun matches yesterday,because everybody in the team (and in the others) worked very well together AND was reading the chat... most defend matches we won,

one we lost 7/8 after a very hard fight...it was great...

in most cases a simple "all RTB" was enough

Hastega, on 26 February 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

Know what we do to base defenders? We kill them. Then take their base. While having superior numbers to what they still have alive on their team. It's simple, easy, and will improve your win ratio.

so much for that

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 27 February 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Aethon]

ShadowDarter, on 26 February 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

DEFEND YOUR BASE!!!!

its simple, easy and will improve your health...

I like it when people try to defend their base when I am in my Jenner. I run across their base, and 2-3 of them leave the front lines to deal with me...at which point the rest of them get slaughtered since they are outnumbered in a big fight. I cannot agree that it helps them to defend their base...but it tends to work well for my team when they try.

Alternatively, some teams just leave a couple people at their base, while the rest of them are outnumbered on the front lines; this effectively does my job for me, lol.

[Brilig]

Hastega, on 26 February 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

I suppose what I dislike then is the idea that it requires two mechs to be effective, as you can be capturing one while the last remaining enemy is capturing the other and constantly base swapping. It also gives lights an advantage because they can capture one base then outrun you to the other one. Finally, in the event you actually camp a base to defend, there is no incentive to engaging unless the player is confident he can take your mech, resulting in a 15 minute thumb twiddling session as both teams are too scared to make a move.

I suppose if you are down to 1 mech on each team they could refuse to fight, and let the match timer run down.

You do have to have at least two mechs, 1 to physically occupy each base to win by cap. So they wouldn't be able to base swap

Your right though I can't think of a great way to make those last two mechs fight it out. If one or both of them decides to run and hide the only thing left would be the match timer. The only idea I have is that if there are only 2 mechs left they get an option to run for a randomly generated extraction point. Whoever makes it there first ends the match in a draw.

[Xinaoen]

I thought this was gonna be an L2P troll thread.

...It should've been.

[Anony Mouse]

Non-Fixed base locations. Using the base locations from Conquest, select a pair at random (more than five potential pairs). So that lights can't bee line and cap the base early, and they'll actually have to *gasp SCOUT!

[LordDante]

Jazzblaster, on 27 February 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

But running around in an Alpine conquest chasing one spider after blowing up the rest of her teammates is sooo much fun.

and that happens how often ?????

we lost alpine yesterday exactly for that reason so the ( enter random scout here ) did his job very well....,

thats mwo ! get over it

the funny thing is that i played 20 round yesterday and i only had ONE match on alpine
some maps are
MORE RANDOM then others ;D

[Hastega]

Anony Mouse, on 27 February 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Non-Fixed base locations. Using the base locations from Conquest, select a pair at random (more than five potential pairs). So that lights can't bee line and cap the base early, and they'll actually have to *gasp SCOUT!

Kain, on 27 February 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

Did someone already mentioned:

Defend your Base !!

seriously quit whining about capping, it is a valid mechanic to win a game, how annoying it sometimes can be.
Why should both teams set up their whole team on an ideal line all on the frontline, when your back and base is completely exposed.. This is 3050 not 1815 or WW1...

This is not about a team winning or losing to capping, it's about fights not occuring at all because both teams had the seek and destroy blob mentality and the match ends with zero deaths and zero damage dealt. When both teams must defend their base from the full weight of a potential crushing force of eight mechs, neither team is safe to leave the base at all. If you don't leave your full strength behind, you risk encountering the full strength of the enemy creeping up on it. Eight mechs vs less than eight mechs doesn't end well for the smaller group. Assault mechs are the most commited to this positioning because wherever they go, they can't quickly relocate should the need arise. This promotes continuing on to the enemy base rather than returning to your base for defense because you are actually more likely to win by capturing the enemy's base than defending your own.

This is significantly different from defending your base from a few light mechs attempting a ghost cap. That's doable. But attempting to defend against the entire enemy team when half of your team is on the other side of the map? Less doable. Feel free to try. Defending your base heavily means your frontline is weak and easy pickings, and defending your base lightly means you'll only serve as a mild speed bump when the enemy shows up. The only prevention of this is scouts and if scouts had spotted the enemy early in the first place, this issue wouldn't have come up. However, there are times when scouts fail to quickly find the enemy and by that point it is too late to relocate the main force to stop the impending cap. Eight mechs capturing a point goes by significantly faster than a few lights, and any defenders who attempt to intervene will be annihilated by concentrated fire.

To restate, this topic is not about light mechs backcapping, that's expected and par for the course and at least some fighting tends to occur while that's happening. It's about what occurs when two teams have completely missed each other and end up closer to the opposite base than their own with eight mechs attempting the capture. If you have no located the enemy in the first minute of the match, the only safe thing to do is attempt to capture their base because odds are they're already on their way to yours. There is no incentive for your forces to return to your own base to defend because of the slower units that every team has. If only your fast units return to base, by the time they arrive the enemy will have begun capping and you will be outnumbered. By the time your slowest units arrive at base, they too are outnumbered. If you wait to engage with your entire team together, you have effectively left eight mechs capturing your control zone unopposed and there is no base left to defend.

Now generally scouts will spot the force long before this becomes an issue, but that doesn't happen every match, especially matches without scouts. Some matches, the scouts spot the enemy just as they are nearing the base itself. The odds of you reaching your own base in time and driving out eight attackers who are already closer to your base than you are before they can complete the capture are worse than the odds of you reaching their base first and simply capturing in turn. Leaving defenders weakens your forces should you encounter the enemy and does little to stop an attacking blob either way. A force can only move together as quickly as its slowest unit and attempting to harass the enemy with quicker units if they are blobbing is just asking for an instant death sentence.


If you've ever ended a game without anyone dying, you know what I mean.

For the TL:DR crowd, this isn't about Light capping, it's about full teams capping because both teams took too long to find each other. And by too long, I mean one minute, because any longer than that and the enemy is probably already at your base. Some matches need more time for maneuvering and scouting, else they end in pacifism.

Edited by Hastega, 27 February 2013 - 01:27 AM.

[Rathverge]

There is a simple solution to this that is widely used in dozens of similar games.

"Where you start is not your 'base' "

*You start here*


+They gotta cap+




+You gotta cap+



*They start here*

[LordDante]

Hastega, on 27 February 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

This is not about a team winning or losing to capping, it's about fights not occuring at all because both teams had the seek and destroy blob mentality and the match ends with zero deaths and zero damage dealt. When both teams must defend their base from the full weight of a potential crushing force of eight mechs, neither team is safe to leave the base at all. If you don't leave your full strength behind, you risk encountering the full strength of the enemy creeping up on it. Eight mechs vs less than eight mechs doesn't end well for the smaller group. Assault mechs are the most commited to this positioning because wherever they go, they can't quickly relocate should the need arise. This promotes continuing on to the enemy base rather than returning to your base for defense because you are actually more likely to win by capturing the enemy's base than defending your own.

This is significantly different from defending your base from a few light mechs attempting a ghost cap. That's doable. But attempting to defend against the entire enemy team when half of your team is on the other side of the map? Less doable. Feel free to try. Defending your base heavily means your frontline is weak and easy pickings, and defending your base lightly means you'll only serve as a mild speed bump when the enemy shows up. The only prevention of this is scouts and if scouts had spotted the enemy early in the first place, this issue wouldn't have come up. However, there are times when scouts fail to quickly find the enemy and by that point it is too late to relocate the main force to stop the impending cap. Eight mechs capturing a point goes by significantly faster than a few lights, and any defenders who attempt to intervene will be annihilated by concentrated fire.

To restate, this topic is not about light mechs backcapping, that's expected and par for the course and at least some fighting tends to occur while that's happening. It's about what occurs when two teams have completely missed each other and end up closer to the opposite base than their own with eight mechs attempting the capture. If you have no located the enemy in the first minute of the match, the only safe thing to do is attempt to capture their base because odds are they're already on their way to yours. There is no incentive for your forces to return to your own base to defend because of the slower units that every team has. If only your fast units return to base, by the time they arrive the enemy will have begun capping and you will be outnumbered. By the time your slowest units arrive at base, they too are outnumbered. If you wait to engage with your entire team together, you have effectively left eight mechs capturing your control zone unopposed and there is no base left to defend.

Now generally scouts will spot the force long before this becomes an issue, but that doesn't happen every match, especially matches without scouts. Some matches, the scouts spot the enemy just as they are nearing the base itself. The odds of you reaching your own base in time and driving out eight attackers who are already closer to your base than you are before they can complete the capture are worse than the odds of you reaching their base first and simply capturing in turn. Leaving defenders weakens your forces should you encounter the enemy and does little to stop an attacking blob either way. A force can only move together as quickly as its slowest unit and attempting to harass the enemy with quicker units if they are blobbing is just asking for an instant death sentence.


If you've ever ended a game without anyone dying, you know what I mean.

For the TL:DR crowd, this isn't about Light capping, it's about full teams capping because both teams took too long to find each other. And by too long, I mean one minute, because any longer than that and the enemy is probably already at your base. Some matches need more time for maneuvering and scouting, else they end in pacifism.

but how often does that happen ???
once every 20 games ?

its mwo .,.

ur rig wont explode nor will ur wife leave u when no damage is done
it happens

so whats was the problem exactly again ?

[J0anna]

Alvor, on 26 February 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Perhaps just unlock base capture when either team has One Player left of coarse every game already has a timer.

What I hate is the suicidal xgamer style alpha dumping players.


To curb suicidal xgamer style alpha dumping players there needs to be a penalty for losing a mech, repairs, & reloads.

This is a problem with most FPS/Sims is that there usually is little consequence for reckless actions and tactics.

In the MechWarrior universe it was common for mechs to retreat from the mission if it was too damaged.

To summarize if using Canon BT/MW:
Enforce the Dispossessed status/penalty & repair/reload costs.

Not going to work. Lets take it to the extreme. Lets say if you lose a mech, you can't log back in for a month. Think people are going to play for long? Before with R&R it wasn't like there was less base capping and people avoiding fights. So putting it back, what makes you think it would work this time? Lastly there is no PVE in this game, thus no chance to replace cbills, so if you drive up the cost of R&R, pretty soon most people would wind up in trial mechs (and or very cheap mechs). Your idea probably sounds good to you on paper, but it goes against the way most people act (avoiding that which is unpleasant). Do you really want to give people a reason to suicide trial mechs? Because that would become the easiest way to make cbills.....

To the OP, if base capping bothers you so much, play conquest. The solution already exists in game.

[FiveDigits]

I actually like WoT's base cap mechanics.

• If you leave the cap zone then the cap meter resets to zero.
  
• If you are damaged while standing in the cap zone then the cap meter resets to zero.

[Ilwrath]

The solution is better game development.

[Rathverge]

FiveDigits, on 27 February 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

I actually like WoT's base cap mechanics.

• If you leave the cap zone then the cap meter resets to zero.
  
• If you are damaged while standing in the cap zone then the cap meter resets to zero.

It doesnt set it to zero it sets it back a percentage based on a per hit basis (but yes it should be more like that)

Also what I was trying to get at is some of their (and other games) map layouts.

Idealy this... http://wiki.worldoft...e:Erlenberg.jpg

[Hastega]

LordDante, on 27 February 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

but how often does that happen ???
once every 20 games ?

Yep, about that.

LordDante, on 27 February 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

so whats was the problem exactly again ?

Exactly what I already said. It happens, and it could not happen. If your game crashed once every 20 games, would you be against them patching a fix to that because it wasn't that often?

Rathverge, on 27 February 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

There is a simple solution to this that is widely used in dozens of similar games.

Yep, I've seen that solution too, works nicely. This is the same basis for Capture the Flag. Simply zerg rushing an objective on the opposite end of the match is too effective when the enemy is encouraged to do the same thing (no neutral ground to fight over), so capture the flag modes require you to bring that objective BACK the other way, allowing for interception. The same team zerg mentality exists and defense is still almost futile, but then the meta becomes both teams taking each other's flag then killing each other on the way back. The winner of the brawl ends up with both flags and a successful capture, it's a game mode that actively encourages fighting.

What we have currently is like playing football with view-obstructing cover and stealth fields. Also both team has their own ball. The team with the fastest runners gets the touchdown.

[FiveDigits]

Rathverge, on 27 February 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

It doesnt set it to zero it sets it back a percentage based on a per hit basis [...]

Sorry, my bad. It's been some time since I played. The effect is the same though.