11 replies to this topic

[HAV0C]

<S> Greetings everyone.

This is just a thought I've been mulling over for the past few weeks and I wanted to see if anyone else felt it might help/aid the current situation regarding Streak SRM's and ECM.

It's pretty simple, and has probably been elaborated on in a similar fashion previously by others, but all the same it follows as such:

No locking weapons of any type function within the bubble of an ECM field. None.

To explain further: If you are a mech that mounts ECM (Raven, Atlas, Commando, etc) and you have missile hard points with Streak SRM's mounted to them, as long as your ECM is set to disrupt, your own Streak launchers would be unable to lock on a target to fire. If you switched your ECM to counter another Jamming ECM 'mech then you would be able to lock and fire, but then you are also nullifying the jamming 'mech's ECM and as such they can then lock on to you and fire their streaks.

This makes the option to use streaks a choice that must be made. Do you effectively turn off ECM to use your locking missile weapons? Or do you leave it on so you can engage without having to worry about being locked on to? Or do you opt ot run a non-locking standard SRM rack to enjoy the benefits of ECM without having to switch it off to bring your missile weapons to bear on a target?

Just a thought. What say you all, MWO General Discussion?


TL;DR: If you're in any ECM field (including your own) no locking weapons can establish a lock on a target. No enemy locks on you, no locks on your target, etc.

<S> See you rowdy lot dirtside.

-Colonel Andrew "Havoc" Davis
Death's Hand Brigade Mercenaries

[icey]

it'd be interesting to see how something like this worked

you may need to add a small cooldown on switching between disrupt/counter though, otherwise itd be easy to just line up a shot, set to counter, lock, shoot, and then switch back.

I'm pinning my hopes on state rewind making 3Ls somewhat killable by lasers before throwing in the towel on streak/ecm being workable as currently implemented though.

[Commander Kobold]

I like your idea somewhat but I can already see ECM mech trolling their own team's missle support.

icey, on 27 February 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

I'm pinning my hopes on state rewind making 3Ls somewhat killable by lasers before throwing in the towel on streak/ecm being workable as currently implemented though.

what choo talkin' bout' willis ._.

[icey]

Omni 13, on 27 February 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

what choo talkin' bout' willis ._.

State rewind:

Bryan Ekman, on 22 February 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Before we do anything to the 3Ls we are waiting for state rewind to come in. 3L's will be a lot less desirable when you can't hide behind lag shields.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1943427

[Xorak]

So... You're saying that your own ECM should block your own locking weapons, and maybe those of your team? I don't want that. Don't get me wrong, I was happier overall before ECM came out, but I don't think it should be 'broken' to punish people for using it. If anything, I think streaks should simply dumb-fire when you pull the trigger with no lock.

[HAV0C]

Xorak, on 27 February 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

So... You're saying that your own ECM should block your own locking weapons, and maybe those of your team? I don't want that. Don't get me wrong, I was happier overall before ECM came out, but I don't think it should be 'broken' to punish people for using it. If anything, I think streaks should simply dumb-fire when you pull the trigger with no lock.

Firstly, thank you for the response, I appreciate that it's well worded and thought out.

Now, I'm not saying that it should affect the members of your team *outside* of your ECM bubble. Friendly ECM shouldn't mask enemy units as well (though I personally don't have a problem with it working that way.) provided they are *outside* of the ECM bubble.

At current, you can lock on to an ECM mech (with a longer to-lock time) if you can stay in that magical zone between the max range of SSRM's and the max range of the ECM 'mechs ECM zone. It's very tough (read; nigh impossible) to maintain that window of range in a mobile combat situation, ESPECIALLY if you're in a light mech like a Raven or Commando.

My idea is simply to make it an all or nothing option. You want ECM? Do without Streaks. You want streaks anyway? Learn how to gamble with your ECM off or use it selectively or be willing to bring enough ECM to counter theirs, but understand that while you're countering theirs you're leaving yourself open to being streaked right back (Because ANY ECM bubble you're inside of, friendly or enemy, will nullify the targeting.)

You will still be able to lock onto an ECM mech from outside the bubble (again, at an increased to-lock time) with Streaks or LRM's if you can get a tag on it or what-have-you.

This isn't a 'NERF ECM' or 'NERF STREAKS' argument. I want to leave them both in the game relatively unchanged outside of the effect inside the bubble of not having any streak locks happen effecting EVERYONE the same, regardless of friend or foe or who's generating the field.

It would certainly make it a choice. Do you charge in on that DDC Atlas shrouded by ECM in your 3L Raven and hope he doesn't switch to counter yours when you get close and fling streaks at you? At least you'll be able to lock your streaks onto him and return fire while you dance (Since his ECM would be nullifying yours and effectively making it so you can lock on to each other.) If your buddy in his ECM Commando comes in to help and leaves his ECM on jamming mode, well nobody will be firing streaks at that point (since the ECM bubble being generated by the Commando is uncountered and the Atlas can only counter one jamming field with it's ECM; the Raven's) but at that point it's two on one. Hope your gunnery is better than the Atlas's at that point and fight it out or run away.

It's the most elegant and simple solution to the biggest issue at present: Streaks and ECM (generally on light, fast chassis that are hard to hit)

Lastly, Streaks don't work that way, they're not dumb fire weapons. That's the benefit to them outside of the fact that they track a target. They *will not* fire if you don't have a lock. They're an all-or-nothing weapon. You either can shoot them and they all hit, or there's no lock and they won't fire at all. Making them dumbfire is basically like saying remove them and if you want that weapon system just get and use regular SRM 2's.

Just clarifying there. Thanks for the replies guys. Please keep the discussion going.

<S>

-Colonel Andrew "Havoc" Davis
Death's Hand Brigade Mercenaries

[TopDawg]

Aside from the potential of trolling/griefing (accidental or otherwise), it could potentially work. However, I think the reality of it would be simply dethroning the Raven 3L for the Jenner D (again).

I suppose it would depend, and offers a bit of risk vs. reward concerning those two, but I still don't think you'd be inclined to take a Spider 5D (and certainly not a Commando 2D) after the change. And meanwhile, anything that isn't the Raven or Jenner will get eaten alive by both of them, instead of only the Raven being able to do it now. Admittedly those are different, and likely unrelated, problems that may get addressed once the artificial speed cap on Lights get lifted.

If this change didn't affect friendly LRMs then it seems fairly workable, or at least I can't readily think of any downsides to it. If it also affected LRMs, I don't think it's a good idea as they're already struggling for viability.

[HAV0C]

TopDawg, on 27 February 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Aside from the potential of trolling/griefing (accidental or otherwise), it could potentially work. However, I think the reality of it would be simply dethroning the Raven 3L for the Jenner D (again).

I suppose it would depend, and offers a bit of risk vs. reward concerning those two, but I still don't think you'd be inclined to take a Spider 5D (and certainly not a Commando 2D) after the change. And meanwhile, anything that isn't the Raven or Jenner will get eaten alive by both of them, instead of only the Raven being able to do it now. Admittedly those are different, and likely unrelated, problems that may get addressed once the artificial speed cap on Lights get lifted.

If this change didn't affect friendly LRMs then it seems fairly workable, or at least I can't readily think of any downsides to it. If it also affected LRMs, I don't think it's a good idea as they're already struggling for viability.

<S> Good points to be sure, but I don't think you'd see a resurgence of Jenners vs. other light 'mechs personally. The Jenner does not suffer the wonky hit boxes that the Raven currently seems to. I know I can hit Jenners far more reliably than I can a Raven for whatever reason anyway. (Not saying I'm a super elite gunner, but I generally can hit what I aim at, particularly with Ballistics.)

And you mention trolling/griefing. Yes this is true to an extent, but anything can be used to grief or troll. Splatcat with 6x SRM 6's decides to go buck-wild on the rear armor of the Atlas in front of him at spawn right as the match starts and DC after maiming/killing the friendly unit as an example (nope.. never had that happen to me, no-sir-ree... ). The point I bring up is as long as you have one un-jammed ECM active and jamming, and you're inside of the 180 meter bubble of that active ECM, your streaks won't lock, even if you're the one with the ECM, streaks won't work. You'd see a lot more lights dogfighting with lasers and SRM's, or if a 'mech can have streaks it won't bring but maybe one or two launchers, and instead run a regular SRM rack in it's place. I see this as a good thing myself, but that's just me.

Also, on an unrelated note, I don't think you'd see Spiders or Commandos relegated to second tier 'mechs. You'd still see them (Especially the Spider, in my view) being used to (SCOUT! ) find their ECM and counter it, allowing larger 'mechs to target & bring weapons to bear on the 'mech or 'mechs inside the enemy ECM field. Each light 'mech we have serves a slightly different role. Trying to use a light 'mech for a role it isn't intended/designed for is going to result in poorer performance.

For example: The Commando is a small, agile missile heavy 'mech (generally) that is designed to dart around behind heavier 'mechs and open up their armor, or swoop in and drop an impressive amount of damage for a 25 ton 'mech on already damaged 'mechs to try and strip out their components or get the kill before fading back behind larger 'mechs or bigger threats. They can fight other lights, but that's not their purpose in my view. It's first role is Harassing, and then Recon.
The Spider is a fast, VERY agile 'mech that can pretty much out maneuver anything it might face on the battlefield. In order to have this kind of mobility it sacrifices firepower, but you'll be hard pressed to keep one in your sights for more than a moment if the pilot knows what he or she is doing. It's first role is very obviously recon, then secondary harassing much like the Commando, but only engaging when it's target is severely weakened by heavier firepower.
The Raven is a wild weasel, simple as that. It's generally fast enough to do it's job, and brings good firepower to bear on it's target. Again, this 'mechs role is recon first, then harassment in my view but being better at the Harassment role than the Spider at the cost of mobility and agility.
The Jenner is the dog fighter, the 'mech other lights should fear most (including the Raven) due to it's impressive arsenal, speed, agility, and good armor for a 'mech it's tonnage. Much like the Commando, it's a Hunter/Killer & Harasser first that can also Recon very well. It's not as agile or fast as a spider generally speaking, but pilot skill being equal, a spider will have it's hands full keeping away from a Jenner long enough to get back towards friendlies to peel the Jenner off.

These are just my views on these 'mechs coming not only from a canon perspective but also having played and participated in MWO and watched the pendulum swing to and fro since the second week of closed beta.

Lastly, to address your final point, no this change would not effect friendly LRM's at all UNLESS you're planning on firing LRM's from an ECM capable 'mech. For example, If you've got an Atlas D-DC with 3x LRM 15's on it and an ECM equipped, you'll need to turn that ECM off (switch to counter) to be able to lock your LRM's on a target. Same goes for if you've got a friendly ECM 'mech nearby and you're within 180 meters of that ECM capable 'mech. Either move outside of the bubble or have them flip it to counter, acquire lock, fire your LRM's and then have them flip it back to jamming.

As for effecting targets down-field? I see it working just like it does now. If you're nullifying the ECM field with a friendly ECM countering, then you can target/lock/fire LRM's at it all day long. If it's in the open and you can target it (with a TAG) through it's ECM field to get a lock, then fire LRM's at it all day long.

This would lead to interesting tactical options. Having your LRM 'mechs set up around a static ECM 'mech and walk forward out of the bubble, lock, fire, and back up to avoid counter (locked) LRM Barrages. Of course this limits your mobility, and once we have modules for indirect fire in game (Air Strike anyone??) will be a risky thing to try, as once you're located you then become the target of all kinds of nasty indirect artillery or other kinds of area effect fire. That said, it would be a viable option in my view, and able to be countered with TAG and other equipment already in game.

Hopefully that clarified things a bit TopDawg. Thanks for your reply.

<S> Take it easy and I hope to see more good discussion soon.

-Colonel Andrew "Havoc" Davis
Death's Hand Brigade Mercenaries

[TopDawg]

I understood your proposal before (except for the LRM bit which you clarified). I think you underestimate the ability of pilots to hit Lights, which will only continue to improve with rewind state and net code improvements.

A Spider or Commando are not going to want to go cancel someone's ECM field when they'll either be one shotted volleyed by a Sniper, or torn apart with a few volleys of SSRMS + Lasers + Ballistics (since, even if they left theirs on disrupt, the DDC/Raven can simply switch to counter). Unfortunately, those roles just don't exist in the current competitive gameplay.

As I said, that might change once they lift the artificial cap on the speed of Lights (assuming Spiders and Commandos are speed demons), but as it is now you're not going to see anything but 3Ls, and maybe a Jenner (more likely with your proposed change).

As I also said before though, since you very rarely ever see LRMs in current competitive play, I'm not very inclined to give them yet another hurdle to jump towards relevance. Competitive, coordinated games also almost (or quite possibly) never play out the way in which you described potential tactics. Artillery (and other cool features that have yet to be added) is entirely unnecessary to already counter the potential tactic described there. Sniper Mechs can peek, fire, and return to cover, before any LRMs are going to lock, let alone reach, the target.

I just don't think this change, especially including LRMs, will accomplish what you hope it will.

[Loxx]

You're focusing on a symptom of the problem, not the actual problem. The problem with the 3L isn't the fact that it can mount 2 streaks and has ecm.

The problem is lights and the lag-shield, or what's left of it. ECM isn't that big of an advantage and streaks are actually a really low damage output weapon (except when boated) on a mech that has virtually no armor. What makes them harder to kill than they actually are is the lag shield.

[Royalewithcheese]

ECM shouldn't block streaks in the first place IMO - just increase lock-on times. "This thing is balanced because it is completely invalidated by this other thing" is bad balancing anyway

[EmeraldSongbird]

Regarding ECM first, if it kills the ability to lock on the mech using it, it should only be logical it blocks it on friendly mechs in the bubble, that is really bad and will not work. The counters for ECM need to be better if anything, the ECM does not need to be nerfed as much as people think. It does what PGI wants it to do.

Regarding streaks, the only thing wrong with them is that they don't miss, you can argue anything else but it is just you being upset that you're killed by them. I pilot ECM-less lights so I just call streak users noobs and I'm on my way...