37 replies to this topic

[Naeron66]

elbloom, on 27 February 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

protection from hackers my *** !
Look at WoT, or Warthunder, LoL, or Rappelz or [insert another f2p mmo name].

WoT uses server side hit detection and calculation. Exactly the same model as MWO and it is one of the selling points, that it is much harder to hack the game to get an advantage.

[Redshift2k5]

you have probably played many other server-side games and didn't notice, because those game had time to finish their lag compensation code. MWO doesn't have any. Yet. State rewinding is a form of lag compensation and this is exactly the kind of scenario it is designed to resolve.

[elbloom]

They could´ve just used cryengines client side hit detection in combination with a game crc check until praised state rewinding is ready to deploy.

And you can be pretty sure I notice a laggy server side hit detection and the internet GETS laggy sometimes for everyone here, not so a problem with great netcode such as half-life engine delivered.

About WoT, I don´t play it but okay they have continental servers - a slow paced fps CAN maybe be done with server side hits, but only if everyone stays under 100ms ping.

Warthunder is client based with multiple anti hacking measures - it works GREAT !!!

[NitroDev]

...because humans have proved time and time again that they are not to be trusted with anything fun.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Why? Well, because gamers have proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted not to be cheating little twits if left to their own devices. We only have ourselves as a gaming community (speaking of the gaming community in general here, not MWO specific) to blame for such measures being necessary. That's why we can't have nice things.

Or basically in fewer words: People suck.

Edited by Steinar Bergstol, 27 February 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Because gamers are generally terrible people (myself included, I suppose) and will cheat if given half an opportunity to do so.

Keep it server side. If I can compensate for my missile bay doors AND server-side auth, you can too

[JadePanther]

elbloom, on 27 February 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

They could´ve just used cryengines client side hit detection in combination with a game crc check until praised state rewinding is ready to deploy.

And you can be pretty sure I notice a laggy server side hit detection and the internet GETS laggy sometimes for everyone here, not so a problem with great netcode such as half-life engine delivered.

About WoT, I don´t play it but okay they have continental servers - a slow paced fps CAN maybe be done with server side hits, but only if everyone stays under 100ms ping.

Warthunder is client based with multiple anti hacking measures - it works GREAT !!!

OMG crc check the living bejeezus outta every file but not gonna help against injected or hooked attacks after the check. There has to be process checking and protection to counter those.

not all hacks have to consist of modifying the original files.

[FactorlanP]

I am very happy that MW:O handles most everything server side.

There are great games out there, such as DayZ (an ARMA mod), that are hacked so badly that playing on any public server is a total nightmare.

[Kristov Kerensky]

elbloom, on 27 February 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

They could´ve just used cryengines client side hit detection in combination with a game crc check until praised state rewinding is ready to deploy.

And you can be pretty sure I notice a laggy server side hit detection and the internet GETS laggy sometimes for everyone here, not so a problem with great netcode such as half-life engine delivered.

About WoT, I don´t play it but okay they have continental servers - a slow paced fps CAN maybe be done with server side hits, but only if everyone stays under 100ms ping.

Warthunder is client based with multiple anti hacking measures - it works GREAT !!!

You are amusing, but I bet you didn't think that would be the result of your post did you? War Thunder already has a number of easy to obtain hacks which you are obviously totally in the dark about...

CRC checks..yeah..so not a good way to detect hacks, much less keep people from using hacks that totally ignore CRC checks.

PunkBuster is used by so many of the big games for a simple reason, it works. It's incredibly invasive, with it's EULA, which you really SHOULD read sometime, giving it permission to monitor ALL of your computer's systems, both software and hardware, including things that have absolutely nothing to do with the software PB is actually monitoring. It does this because hacks don't have to actually alter anything in the GAME itself in order to work, they can instead make calls to other parts of your hardware and software to alter how the game works. Some of the hacks out there are actually damned impressive works of coding and finding them isn't done with CRC checks, that's script kiddie bs.

As for the awesome netcode on Half Life...that's a joke right? No..you meant that seriously...huh..some people just have no clue how things work do they?

[Terror Teddy]

ParasiteX, on 27 February 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

Once they fixed the netcode and implemented state rewinding. It wont matter how bad you're ping is. As you will then be able to hit whatever you aim at.

http://mwomercs.com/...56#entry1497356

But how will they use rewinding?

A sees B and shoots but due to PING B is actually not there but 2 meters in front.

Will they triangulate the info between SERVER+A+B and see what is correct server side and then send the result to the affected parties?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Terror Teddy, on 27 February 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

But how will they use rewinding?

A sees B and shoots but due to PING B is actually not there but 2 meters in front.

Will they triangulate the info between SERVER+A+B and see what is correct server side and then send the result to the affected parties?

Typically, what it means is that what you see is what you get when you fire your weapon.

A is at 300ms ping, B is at 50ms ping. A sees B about to duck behind cover and fires his weapons. The server looks at the data and the time the data was sent. THIS is the important part, the TIME that the data was sent. The server looks at the state of the world at that particular moment in time for A and sees that B was in the open for A and that A's weapons should hit it and applies the damage. B thinks he was behind cover when A fired, but that's because of that difference in ping time, so B takes damage when it appears to B that he was behind cover. Also works in reverse, you don't have to try and compensate for the lag of your intended target, lead/lag aim/deal with lagshield, because the server looks at where you were, what TIME you fired and what you saw in your view of the world at that particular moment in time, so your shots hit that 300ms target just as if it were at 0ms ping.

It's probably the most effective way of compensating for lag there is, and it's also much harder to hack then client side systems which look at each client and what they see and reacts accordingly. That might SEEM like a better system but in reality it's a much worse system, as it really does give an advantage to high ping players and allows for SO many ways to fudge the results without having to actually hack a single thing..it's why the early multiplayer games were so filled with hacks, they are incredibly easy to do when the client controls the world.

[ParasiteX]

Terror Teddy, on 27 February 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

But how will they use rewinding?

A sees B and shoots but due to PING B is actually not there but 2 meters in front.

Will they triangulate the info between SERVER+A+B and see what is correct server side and then send the result to the affected parties?

They explained this in deatail in a eariler command chair. but cant seem to find it now.. but ill try to explain best as i can.

How the state rewinding will essentially work. Is that the server will keep track of where everyone was at a certain point in time.

In the current system. If you where to shoot a target while also moving at the same time. Then once the shots got sent to the servers. You and the target mech would be in completely different spots. Thus completely missing a shot that would have otherwise hit on the client.

With state rewinding, when you shoot. The data of your shot gets transferred to sever. Then the server will calculate where you and the target where from the time you made the shot, based on what your ping is. And then from those positions, check whether or not the shot would have actually hit.

The lil draw back of this. is that while your shot will hit. The actual damage wont register until the data reaches the servers, and then gets sent back to you with a result.

Which can lead to some odd situations where you think you may have managed to duck into cover. But because you're still several milliseconds behind on server. A enemy shot wouldn't register on you until a short while after he made the shot.

[elbloom]

elbloom, on 27 February 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

All you need is crc check any game files (MWO isn´t doing this, you can even edit their .pak files for nifty features you guys don´t know about) and protect the memory assets the game is using.

You can now stop your enlightenment mission about injection and NIC packet hacks. I already said a CRC check would be one thing, protecting it´s assets in the OS another. both has to be done - if clientside registration.

So please, discuss something useful.....

[Vapor Trail]

Calem, on 27 February 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

Why?

"The client is in the hands of the enemy."

PGI thankfully understood that right from the beginning.

If you're seriously interested as to why, read around here:
http://www.raphkoste...to-hack-an-mmo/

(It's educational despite the rather martial link description)

Damn good read.

[Doc Holliday]

First, OP, you're grossly exaggerating the effect of your high ping.

Second, it will be a lot better once they implement state-rewind.

Third, as posted by numerous others, it's to prevent hacking/cheating. If it's on the client side, it can be manipulated. Simple as that.

[IceSerpent]

elbloom, on 27 February 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

All you need is crc check any game files (MWO isn´t doing this, you can even edit their .pak files for nifty features you guys don´t know about) and protect the memory assets the game is using.

Guys, do you think we should tell him about nifty ability to alter outbound network packets on-the-fly now or wait a bit longer?

[ObsidianSpectre]

CRCs don't prevent malicious attacks, and aren't intended to. They are, at best, a minor annoyance to the hacker, and easily defeated.

Bottom line, if it's on the client, it can be hacked, and there's really nothing you can do to stop it. The enemy controls that end of the software.

Edited by ObsidianSpectre, 27 February 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[OpCentar]

JadePanther, on 27 February 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

I fear not everything is done server side. I imagine targeting has some to do client side and has been hacked.. Otherwise i wouldnt be getting warning targeted when i'm behind heavy cover with no mech in sight..

Los checks like on WoT are server side. the tank only appears if the server says u can see it.. but here u can see a mech that is outside targetable range but inside the current max draw distance. I believe mechs locations are available to the client despite possible LOS, and that someone has hacked it and the targeting routines to allow them to get target data anytime they like.

You are correct.

There were (are?) known hacks which allow you to mark all enemy mechs using a red box outline. Doesn't matter if they are detected or not - they get a red outline as soon as they enter your drawing range. So the client must know their position at all times or they have found out a way how to get that data from the server, which is less likely.

It's an old hack that has been out since CB and I don't think it has ever been fixed. Don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong.