73 replies to this topic

[Stimraug]

Title. Your thoughts on the matter?

Personally I dislike it, it's annoying and affects stealthy gameplay, for example scouting in a negative manner.

Now someone could argue that the enemy computer notices it when you target them by reading the targeting info you're sending to your allies. I'm no lore expert, but I do study computer technology, and it should be easy to encrypt such information from enemy computers.

Edited by Stimraug, 26 February 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[xenoglyph]

I dislike it too, but let's keep any kind of physics/reality discussion out of it, it never ends well on these boards.

[jakucha]

The hate for this is understandable but misguided. This can easily save you from getting hit by missiles. Relying only on the "missile alert" sign means they're already in flight and if you aren't near cover you're screwed. Make it so you can turn it off, but don't get rid of it.

Edited by jakucha, 26 February 2013 - 02:33 AM.

[xenoglyph]

The fact is they can justify the various alerts however they like. It's fiction after all.

Incoming missile alert was never mentioned by the OP. I'd be perfectly happy to see that "targeted" alert disappear and the "incoming missile" alert remain.

Edited by xenoglyph, 26 February 2013 - 02:32 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

explained in another thread you can turn betty off completely just by turning the dialog volume to naught. selecting particular phrases to be muted well that's a different story.

really i wouldn't want to lose any of it.

[Windsaw]

Where's the "indifferent" option?

[Tetatae Squawkins]

I would prefer a simple visual warning.

[Peiper]

I like pulp science fiction. Mechwarrior is that, but really most of the weapons are 'dumbfire' and unguided. Even LRM's are dumbfired in CBT and only lock on in MW because they would never hit anything if not. Streaks are the exception, along with 'new' technolgies like TAG, Missle Beacons, BAP, ECM, C3....

So, if there is a 'warning: targetted' message, it should follow along the lines of missle lock detection for airplanes, and this is presuming our mechs have sensors that can detect other sensors. For example, I doubt even modern fighter planes have any form of 'TAG detection.' There is no PHYSICAL effect to detect from a laser. So, only certain things should be detected by mechs if at all:

Missle locks due to NARC, which give off noise, ECM jamming which blocks sensors, and streak locks. Mech sensors in CBT are mostly passive: visual, audio, seismic, thermal, IR, etc... Even if you were getting hit by radar, it doesn't mean another mechwarrior is targetting you SPECIFICALLY. Only HIS computer has been assigned to keep that one 'lit up' on his targetting screen, but how would YOU know what HIS computer has been assigned to track? BAP may be able to pick up more specific information as it is an extra 3000 lbs. of sensors added to your mech!

To take this to another level: other than identifying the general SHAPE of mechs, I don't understand how a mech's detection system can pick up specific loadouts on other mechs. How do my sensors know that an enemy mech is carrying small lasers, for example? If mechs have IFF, they would still only broadcast very basic information, coded for FRIENDLY units to ID. (What we have, ironically, is a sensor system that can lock on and ID enemy mech load outs, but cannot do the same to friendly mechs which are actually broadcasting their ID to other friendlies...)

So, regarding 'warning: targetted' messages, I say look to canon. I'm sure, other than some sort of 'missle lock' warnings, mechwarriors don't know a PPC is being trained on their backs from 1,000 meters away.

So, no, I don't believe 'warning: targetted' messages fit in this game other than specific circumstances like NARC and streak locks.

_____________________________

If I were to vote in this poll, I'd want the option to: alter 'warning: targetted' messages so they only trigger if they LOGICALLY would.

Edited by Peiper, 26 February 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[ObsidianSpectre]

It shouldn't be there. It's a pure advantage to people on comms, since they don't need it to pass location information. Betty shouldn't warn you about targeting unless you're being tagged, narced, or have guided missiles in flight.

[jakucha]

Peiper, on 26 February 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

I like pulp science fiction. Mechwarrior is that, but really most of the weapons are 'dumbfire' and unguided. Even LRM's are dumbfired in CBT and only lock on in MW because they would never hit anything if not. Streaks are the exception, along with 'new' technolgies like TAG, Missle Beacons, BAP, ECM, C3....

So, if there is a 'warning: targetted' message, it should follow along the lines of missle lock detection for airplanes, and this is presuming our mechs have sensors that can detect other sensors. For example, I doubt even modern fighter planes have any form of 'TAG detection.' There is no PHYSICAL effect to detect from a laser. So, only certain things should be detected by mechs if at all:

Missle locks due to NARC, which give off noise, ECM jamming which blocks sensors, and streak locks. Mech sensors in CBT are mostly passive: visual, audio, seismic, thermal, IR, etc... Even if you were getting hit by radar, it doesn't mean another mechwarrior is targetting you SPECIFICALLY. Only HIS computer has been assigned to keep that one 'lit up' on his targetting screen, but how would YOU know what HIS computer has been assigned to track? BAP may be able to pick up more specific information as it is an extra 3000 lbs. of sensors added to your mech!

To take this to another level: other than identifying the general SHAPE of mechs, I don't understand how a mech's detection system can pick up specific loadouts on other mechs. How do my sensors know that an enemy mech is carrying small lasers, for example? If mechs have IFF, they would still only broadcast very basic information, coded for FRIENDLY units to ID. (What we have, ironically, is a sensor system that can lock on and ID enemy mech load outs, but cannot do the same to friendly mechs which are actually broadcasting their ID to other friendlies...)

So, regarding 'warning: targetted' messages, I say look to canon. I'm sure, other than some sort of 'missle lock' warnings, mechwarriors don't know a PPC is being trained on their backs from 1,000 meters away.

So, no, I don't believe 'warning: targetted' messages fit in this game other than specific circumstances like NARC and streak locks.

Dude, comparing mechwarrior technology to ours in a logical manner is a losing battle. You've lost before you started. It's a game for a reason.

[OpCentar]

ObsidianSpectre, on 26 February 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

It shouldn't be there. It's a pure advantage to people on comms, since they don't need it to pass location information. Betty shouldn't warn you about targeting unless you're being tagged, narced, or have guided missiles in flight.

Agreed, except on the LRM part.

TAG and NARC yes, when you are getting painted by those you should get a warning but with LRMs it just makes them all that more useless at long range.

An exception could be made for mechs equipped with AMS, it needs a buff anyway, giving it a warning system capability makes sense.

At the very least reduce the warning to 500m or less so long range support mechs can have a chance of doing some damage.

[Spar]

Do you not get the odd circumstances where you get the lock warning for no reason at all? even when you are in a position where its impossible for the enemy to even see you let alone lock you?

[One Medic Army]

Well, it only goes off when you hit R looking at an enemy mech and, you know, target them.
Think of it as the enemy mech detecting all the sensors you have suddenly directed at them that allow you to see their armor/internals status and loadout.

You can dumbfire at someone all day without targeting them with R and they will never hear the warning.

[Peiper]

jakucha, on 26 February 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

Dude, comparing mechwarrior technology to ours in a logical manner is a losing battle. You've lost before you started. It's a game for a reason.

Oh, go 'stackpole supernova' or troll someone else.

[Cola]

I would like to see some options for the warnings, like the ability to toggle them on or off based on user pref. I would prefer a warning tone over a incoming missile speech. Little things like that, but over all I am pleased with the voice overs.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

I kind of think of it like modern submarines (well, from what I know from simulators ) and fighter planes with radar guider or heat seeker missiles..
Not locking someone = passive tracking. Ok, subs use passive sonar to listen to their targets and heat seekers don't need an active lock, since they... seek heat. Enemy doesn't know he's being watched/going to be attacked.

locking someone = active tracking. Like the subs' active sonar *ping* that bounces off you (same with an active torpedo homing to you) and you know someone's looking at you or when a radar missile is locking on you and you're being painted by the enemy plane's radar.

And since Mechs use well, "radar" in the games, locking someone means you're painting him with waves that are being intercepted and he knows he's being tracked.

I hope I didn't confuse everyone.

[Major Derps]

This is a hard one, it's annoying as hell, but man is it handy. I think maybe it should only come as an extra 'perk' of BAP.

*edit*

Ghost Rider LSOV, on 26 February 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

I kind of think of it like modern submarines (well, from what I know from simulators ) and fighter planes with radar guider or heat seeker missiles..
Not locking someone = passive tracking. Ok, subs use passive sonar to listen to their targets and heat seekers don't need an active lock, since they... seek heat. Enemy doesn't know he's being watched/going to be attacked.

locking someone = active tracking. Like the subs' active sonar *ping* that bounces off you (same with an active torpedo homing to you) and you know someone's looking at you or when a radar missile is locking on you and you're being painted by the enemy plane's radar.

And since Mechs use well, "radar" in the games, locking someone means you're painting him with waves that are being intercepted and he knows he's being tracked.

I hope I didn't confuse everyone.

This is a brilliant idea.

Edited by Mokey Mot, 26 February 2013 - 03:14 AM.

[Cola]

Ghost Rider LSOV, on 26 February 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

I kind of think of it like modern submarines (well, from what I know from simulators ) and fighter planes with radar guider or heat seeker missiles..
Not locking someone = passive tracking. Ok, subs use passive sonar to listen to their targets and heat seekers don't need an active lock, since they... seek heat. Enemy doesn't know he's being watched/going to be attacked.

locking someone = active tracking. Like the subs' active sonar *ping* that bounces off you (same with an active torpedo homing to you) and you know someone's looking at you or when a radar missile is locking on you and you're being painted by the enemy plane's radar.

And since Mechs use well, "radar" in the games, locking someone means you're painting him with waves that are being intercepted and he knows he's being tracked.

I hope I didn't confuse everyone.

I'm a Sonar Tech on Submarines its nothing like that. But most people think it is. So for the purpose of this thread it works.

[Stimraug]

Peiper, on 26 February 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

So, if there is a 'warning: targetted' message, it should follow along the lines of missle lock detection for airplanes, and this is presuming our mechs have sensors that can detect other sensors. For example, I doubt even modern fighter planes have any form of 'TAG detection.' There is no PHYSICAL effect to detect from a laser. So, only certain things should be detected by mechs if at all:

Missle locks due to NARC, which give off noise, ECM jamming which blocks sensors, and streak locks. Mech sensors in CBT are mostly passive: visual, audio, seismic, thermal, IR, etc... Even if you were getting hit by radar, it doesn't mean another mechwarrior is targetting you SPECIFICALLY. Only HIS computer has been assigned to keep that one 'lit up' on his targetting screen, but how would YOU know what HIS computer has been assigned to track?

I agree to this logical reasoning, especially the last sentence quoted.

Spar, on 26 February 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

Do you not get the odd circumstances where you get the lock warning for no reason at all? even when you are in a position where its impossible for the enemy to even see you let alone lock you?

That is a bug I believe. It usually occurs when someone from your team targets a target you have targeted but lost sight of, and that enemy has atleast once targeted you before. Pending further testing.

jakucha, on 26 February 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

The hate for this is understandable but misguided. This can easily save you from getting hit by missiles. Relying only on the "missile alert" sign means they're already in flight and if you aren't near cover you're screwed. Make it so you can turn it off, but don't get rid of it.

It is true it can save you. But what I am arguing is that there should be no additional "help" in this matter. Why should there be something to save me from missiles (or any other weapon), other than my OWN awareness and piloting? I actually LIKE being surprised because I was careless or wasn't aware of my surroundings enough!

GalaxyBluestar, on 26 February 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

explained in another thread you can turn betty off completely just by turning the dialog volume to naught. selecting particular phrases to be muted well that's a different story.

really i wouldn't want to lose any of it.

Yes turning it off is an individual matter, but it would still warn others of me, so that they have an automatic system substituting for their lack of awareness.

Windsaw, on 26 February 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Where's the "indifferent" option?

Added per request, sir.

Ghost Rider LSOV, on 26 February 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

I kind of think of it like modern submarines (well, from what I know from simulators ) and fighter planes with radar guider or heat seeker missiles..
Not locking someone = passive tracking. Ok, subs use passive sonar to listen to their targets and heat seekers don't need an active lock, since they... seek heat. Enemy doesn't know he's being watched/going to be attacked.

locking someone = active tracking. Like the subs' active sonar *ping* that bounces off you (same with an active torpedo homing to you) and you know someone's looking at you or when a radar missile is locking on you and you're being painted by the enemy plane's radar.

And since Mechs use well, "radar" in the games, locking someone means you're painting him with waves that are being intercepted and he knows he's being tracked.

I would argue that by this logic they should be warned right when your targeting computer notices them, i.e when that blank triangle forms on their spot, BEFORE you actively target them. As someone already said, 'R'-targeting them is only something that the computer does inside your mech, and has nothing to do with scanning or radar.

Edited by Stimraug, 26 February 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Major Derps]

arden, on 26 February 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

I'm a Sonar Tech on Submarines its nothing like that. But most people think it is. So for the purpose of this thread it works.

Not real world perfect, but you're right, it would work well for the game...IMO

Also...cool job

Edited by Mokey Mot, 26 February 2013 - 03:17 AM.