36 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

So now that mechs aren't balanced by weight you've brought us back to the closed beta where an Atlas might be matched against a Jenner. But that's totally fair right? You and three friends can all drop in a Jenner while we bring 4 Atlases. Sure an Atlas might lose to a Jenner if the Atlas has to worry about a more dangerous opponent but in a vacuum I'll bet on the 4 assault mechs any day of the week (especially if piloted by my friends). I expect that once everyone is done grinding the new shiny that we'll all go back to playing our favorite OP mech (probably with ECM). And then we'll run them in groups of four for extra pug stomping power.

Before the patch most matches ended pretty close and there was the occasional blow out. But more and more often I see matches ending with scores like 8:0, 7:1, and 6:2. What happened? There's no longer a weight limit. For about a week people will be grinding their new medium toys and then they'll largely vanish.

So you can drop 4 Ravens in conquest and never fight unless you absolutely and completely outnumber the target. The enemy team might not even have a light mech. But that's not utterly and completely broken in any way right? The joke's probably on you for not thinking about doing it first.

On top of this... if what I am hearing is correct (and empirical testing suggests this is the case) then as your Elo increases the quality of your team mates decreases. Why? Teams are apparently balanced by total Elo score..... not individuals. I had hoped the Elo system would match similar ranked players so that low end players only saw low end players. Segregation of good players and bad players helps the game. Bad players have no chance against some of the best players on the server. Running into such an opponent while they are brand new to the game is likely to make them quit. Highly skilled players become very frustrated with new players on their team that have problems controlling their stock mech, assigning weapon groups and hitting R to target an enemy.

What should be happening is that every player on my team should be weighted against another opponent who is within his score by +/- 50 points (if player base is small maybe 100). If my team is all ranked 2000 or above there should be no one in the game who is below a rating of 1500 (unless I group with someone with a much lower Elo).

[MstrHellraiser]

A team of light can totally wins VS a team of assault.

If you don't understand how, you don't understand MechWarrior at all. (And should probably play an assault as you think this is a brawler only game....)

Your mech type is your stategy. Your skill as a player is your difficulty as an opponent.

ELO is the way to go.

[Wispsy]

Weight is really not that much of an issue at all. It just requires playing differently. If you think you are losing because you were lighter, you are wrong. You lost because the other team played better

[Shadowsword8]

I like ELO. I see far fewer matches where I'd get ticked off because half my team is made of guys who wouldn't hit an Awesome in a Frozen City tunnel, or would station their brawler assaults behind the snipers to use them as meat shields..

Edited by Shadowsword8, 27 February 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[Glythe]

Wispsy, on 27 February 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Weight is really not that much of an issue at all. It just requires playing differently. If you think you are losing because you were lighter, you are wrong. You lost because the other team played better

Prove it. I challenge you and 3 friends to fight 4 Atlases (or assaults) with any combination of 4 light mechs of your choice (guessing ravens). I'd even offer the challenge against the PGI team if they were so inclined to read this thread and then make time for a quick duel.

We'll all be camping by the base against the wall so you have to kill us from the front (unless you agree capping is not allowed).


I can score upwards of 400 with any weight class consistently. With an Atlas I can score anywhere from 600-1000 (not using any LRMs). I've spent my time in every weight class during the closed beta and release. I know how to kill people from behind as a light.

All that aside can you tell me with a straight face that bringing 4 ravens to conquest is even remotely fair if the enemy team has only 1 light mech?

Edited by Glythe, 27 February 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[Para B]

I've only been playing MW:O for 3-4 weeks but I have to say since the ELO patch my gaming experience has improved a lot. Yes, every now and then the matchmaker puts very unbalanced teams against each other. I've had my fair share of Alpine conquest matches where one side had 3 Lights and the other none. Not much fun.

But in my experience the VAST majority of matches are MUCH more fun then before. I see FAR less 8:0, 7:1 steamrollers since the ELO patch. I play about 50/50 PUG/premades and with ELO I now get much more balanced, exciting matches.

[Signal27]

Glythe, on 27 February 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Prove it. I challenge you and 3 friends to fight 4 Atlases with any combination of 4 light mechs of your choice (guessing ravens).

We'll all be camping by the base against the wall so you have to kill us from the front (unless you agree capping is not allowed).

Funny you should mention this. Because a similar setup happened to me in a Conquest game. I was on the assault-heavy team in my Atlas. The other team consisted of lights or otherwise fast mechs. The map was Alpine. Guess who won? Well we killed 4 of them but... we lost on points.

Now before you tell me that it doesn't count because it was an Alpine Conquest map, do keep in mind that given the currently random nature of the drops it could have easily gone the other way if we were dropped on a small map or played an Assault objective. Though, I do agree that there needs to be some tightening up of the weight differences. But I certainly hope the Elo is here to stay permanently.

Edited by Signal27, 27 February 2013 - 05:51 AM.

[Wispsy]

Glythe, on 27 February 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Prove it. I challenge you and 3 friends to fight 4 Atlases with any combination of 4 light mechs of your choice (guessing ravens).

We'll all be camping by the base against the wall so you have to kill us from the front (unless you agree capping is not allowed).

I doubt we can with Elo now in place...
Also I pilot a Jenner and taking Ravens against Assaults is just plain silly, Ravens are the best light hunters, they do terrible damage to Assaults. An ER PPC Spider could ruin your day just getting free shots off for 10 minutes. And it is 8v8 games, not 4v4. I think you just need to l2p a little, camping by a wall only really leaves you totally exposed to attacks from multiple directions, sure it will be slow going but it is not like you are going anywhere.....as long as attacks are made from random directions and angles you will only ever hit due to luck, as your weapons will need to be facing exactly where they are popping up to get hits and you are stationary and they are freely moving...

Anyway that aside.........Let me point out, you physically cannot win the game doing that unless the lights let you? I mean your whole plan of attack...is to get at best a draw......

[Fooooo]

TBH I haven't even noticed or cared about any disparity in mech weights as it seems to of done nothing to effect my matches so far.

The matches have been generally quite close fought and fun.

Do I sometimes face 8mans and 4mans, yes, but its still close games, mech weights have not really played a part imo.....


I really don't even look at that stuff at the end of the match, the main one I look at is if I see 4 raven's heading my way DURING the match.....thats about it.

Edited by Fooooo, 27 February 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[Hekalite]

Is anyone surprised that phase 3 matchmaking isn't perfect right out of the box? The fact is weight matching is an intended feature of the matchmaker. Right now it has to relax that restricting the longer you sit in the queue in order to ensure you get a match. Lack of proper weight balancing is not a failure of ELO as a design choice, it's a bug with the current implementation. The devs have said they will continue to fine tune the matchmaker so for now it is what it is, but it will get better. Give it a few patches before you condem the system completely.

[Fooooo]

Hekalite, on 27 February 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Is anyone surprised that phase 3 matchmaking isn't perfect right out of the box? The fact is weight matching is an intended feature of the matchmaker. Right now it has to relax that restricting the longer you sit in the queue in order to ensure you get a match. Lack of proper weight balancing is not a failure of ELO as a design choice, it's a bug with the current implementation. The devs have said they will continue to fine tune the matchmaker so for now it is what it is, but it will get better. Give it a few patches before you condem the system completely.

Even then, is it really a big deal ?

Does having a team all of atlas's (pubbers) vs a team of all raven 3l's (pubbers) make any difference ?

I would put my money on the raven's atm. When state-rewind is in place, maybe the atlas's depending how good the pilots are, either way it really makes no difference.

If you are as good as your Elo states, then you should be able to defeat higher tonnage mechs.....at least generally....its not a perfect thing elo.

[Johnny Morgan]

Why are you complaining about something that is coming?

Please read the Command and Announcement forums, they have already said they are going to include weight into the match maker.

[Glythe]

Signal27, on 27 February 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Funny you should mention this. Because a similar setup happened to me in a Conquest game. I was on the assault-heavy team in my Atlas. The other team consisted of lights or otherwise fast mechs. The map was Alpine. Guess who won? Well we killed 4 of them but... we lost on points.

Noice I said "the base". That means assault.

Wispsy, on 27 February 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Also I pilot a Jenner and taking Ravens against Assaults is just plain silly, Ravens are the best light hunters, they do terrible damage to Assaults. An ER PPC Spider could ruin your day just getting free shots off for 10 minutes. And it is 8v8 games, not 4v4. I think you just need to l2p a little, camping by a wall only really leaves you totally exposed to attacks from multiple directions, sure it will be slow going but it is not like you are going anywhere.....as long as attacks are made from random directions and angles you will only ever hit due to luck, as your weapons will need to be facing exactly where they are popping up to get hits and you are stationary and they are freely moving...

Anyway that aside.........Let me point out, you physically cannot win the game doing that unless the lights let you? I mean your whole plan of attack...is to get at best a draw......

Let me start with your second point first. If we played a 4 on 4 game (8 people in total are just there to watch) with the stipulation that the only way to win is through combat it would be a completely different game. That is more or less what I was proposing (otherwise you would just cap the base.... hence the wall camping bit). Second with the exception of caustic valley on one side of the map every base features a location right by the base (or the base itself) that denies long range combat.

An ERPPC spider sounds like a great idea until you realize just how long it is going to take you to core an Atlas (compared to how many times he needs to hit you).

I see you've decided the crux of your argument to be learn to play. Alright let me give you a little instruction. The base on the high ground (one near the coal pile or wtf that is) is an amazing defensible position. Light mechs that do not use XL engines are slow targets and as such die quickly. Light mechs that use XL engines are vulnerable to being killed with the loss of their side torso. It is somewhat rare to see mechs that dip down to 22% health but when I do it is never a light mech. They tend to be alive and functional or about to die (perhaps because they lost a leg). As such 3 lucky hits could cripple a light mech or destroy it outright. And then there is the issue of streaks.

As for the idea that the lights could only lose if they let you..... are you suggesting they just run around when one is left? The whole point is a fight to the death. Running around to force a draw is not an option.

Johnny Morgan, on 27 February 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Why are you complaining about something that is coming?

Please read the Command and Announcement forums, they have already said they are going to include weight into the match maker.

No offense but did you read the old threads about MM complaints before weight was balanced? You only have about 200 posts so you might not have been reading the boards at that time (although you are a founder so it is possible). There's no reason to throw us back into a system that we know does not work.

Edited by Glythe, 27 February 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[Exoth3rmic]

This is from the command chair post on matchmaking and weight:

"Once we get a full understanding of how accurately the Match Maker is working, we are going to add some additional parameters to the mix. These include a more defined player skill rating and a Mech weight class balancing system. More info on these when the first pass of Elo testing is done."

So, wait for....weight.

[Hekalite]

Fooooo, on 27 February 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Even then, is it really a big deal ?

Does having a team all of atlas's (pubbers) vs a team of all raven 3l's (pubbers) make any difference ?

I would put my money on the raven's atm. When state-rewind is in place, maybe the atlas's depending how good the pilots are, either way it really makes no difference.

If you are as good as your Elo states, then you should be able to defeat higher tonnage mechs.....at least generally....its not a perfect thing elo.

No I don't think it's always a big deal, but some matches just turn into a cheese fest. I personally feel the matches are more interesting when the weight classes are at least similar.

[Agent of Change]

The issue I have seen and it's happenned a few times in pure pug drops.

One team has 4-5 assaults and the opponent has 1 or none
One team has 4-5 lights and the opponent has 1 or none
One team has 4-5 ECM mechs and the other has 1 or none
or any combination of the above.

I have some screenshots (unfortunately not available at the moment) of some particularly imbalanced matches the one that is an extreme example was the enemy team had (IIRC) 4 Atlas D-DC's (all ecm), 2 Raven 3L's (both ecm), 1 K-2 and another assault i can't remember. Our team had 1 assault and no ECM.

Now i'm willing to give Elo a chance and I think it has improved some things but no one can tell me that teams are being "balanced" by Elo alone. There needs to be tonnage limits (which is apparently coming "when Elo is balanced") or class matching. This does need to come sooner than later because the system is easy to game.

If you want to break MM, grab a 4 man and all drop in Assaults you will guaranteed 9 out of 10 matches out number their assault at least 2 to 1. Drop in all ECM same result. When you can intentionally stack the teams without any fear of any kind of balancing the MM can be said to still be broken.

[Skaroth]

Glythe, on 27 February 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Noice I said "the base". That means assault.

As was said above, the best your strategy gets you is a draw. Out in the open you'd likely lose.

[Yokaiko]

Wispsy, on 27 February 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Weight is really not that much of an issue at all. It just requires playing differently. If you think you are losing because you were lighter, you are wrong. You lost because the other team played better

Pretty much this.

I went ballistic on a team the other day Alpine conquest they took a fight WAY WAY out-gunned. We had nothing but a pair of lights at the node we could have bailed and turned around.

I got told to buzz off when I said to turn around.

Result, 8-0 splat. WE were WAY lighter, we just had to move.

[Voridan Atreides]

Shadowsword8, on 27 February 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

I like ELO. I see far fewer matches where I'd get ticked off because half my team is made of guys who wouldn't hit an Awesome in a Frozen City tunnel, or would station their brawler assaults behind the snipers to use them as meat shields..

Exactly. I know what you mean.

[Johnny Morgan]

Exoth3rmic, on 27 February 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

This is from the command chair post on matchmaking and weight:

"Once we get a full understanding of how accurately the Match Maker is working, we are going to add some additional parameters to the mix. These include a more defined player skill rating and a Mech weight class balancing system. More info on these when the first pass of Elo testing is done."

So, wait for....weight.

thanks for quoting.... I was to lazy