110 replies to this topic

[Thirdstar]

Spawnsalot, on 28 February 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

If Elo is made visible it *will* be used like Gear Score in WoW or K:Dr / Score/min in BF3 and it *will* create an extremely toxic atmosphere on the forums, elitism will be rife.

No thanks.

Yeah that was a FUN time in WoW. Even though at that point I had pretty decent GS, I saw so many of my more casual guildmates get all kinds of shittalk for their 'noob GS'.

IG 88, on 28 February 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

you guys make me laught

Yeah, I laught often too

[Ceesa]

Starcraft strikes a nice middle ground: Players are put into one of six leagues, based on a hidden ELO rating. Each league comprises approximately 20% of the playerbase, so you can get an idea of where you stand in relation to others. The top league is the top 2% of players, so that the ultra-competitive can earn that title and be proud of it. But nowhere is an actual number generated that is visible to the player, and no one has seriously complained about that.

Edited by WNxFireDrake, 28 February 2013 - 05:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ilwrath, on 28 February 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

Not new at all.

I really like the way WoT does it. That is not Elo though but the stats. When I think about it, maybe I am that jerk because I have indeed stat-argued when people was bullshitting about bad tanks in that game.

I still would like them to be public. Or at least personal if not public.

I cannot understand why people fear information on a personal basis.

the first part was a bit of ill delivered teasing. I con't understand it either, but they will be crying cause MarkieMech made fun of my Elo. It really shouldn't be private I agree. I just know what will happen if it is published to us.

[Chrithu]

The problem is since Elo is designed to match equaly skilled players once it has reached the plateau for your skill it won't change much anymore because the matchmaker ensures your winning chances will be 50/50 which means for everytime you win and climb you will lose a game and decrease again. This is unless you get meaningfully better and thus start to win more often than lose again. Which would be fine as this means it is a quite accurate measure of a players longterm performance.

The meaningful difference though is that in this game Elo is designed to match equally skilled teams. And it measures individual skill mainly based on the team's performance. There's no official word on it yet but I guess the matchscore does modify how strong the inidvidual player's ELO is modified. But the direction is dictated by the teams performance. Meaning a player whose Team lost but he scored 5 kills and 800 DMG will still se a decrease (though a quite low one due to his matchscore) to his Elo allthough he dominated 5 players of the opposing team and was clearly doing good and has high skill.

This somewhat disqualifies Elo in MWO as a metric for individual skill. Thus I don't see any good coming from it being visible.

Also this means your W/L ratio will give you a pretty good idea of what your Elo is doing. If you are currently winning more than losing your Elo is climbing. If you have a 50/50 W/L at the moment your Elo is standing more or less still.

Also if you want a measure of your individual skill your average matchscore per game would be a far more suited metric to start at. Just screenshot it or write it down every match and keep updating the average.

Edited by Jason Parker, 28 February 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[valrond]

It should be visible to everybody. In iRacing, there is an Elo Rating, call iRating (one for oval and one for road), and everybody can see the irating of others. You can even see every race a driver has done. So yes, information is good.

[Side Step]

WNxFireDrake, on 28 February 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Starcraft strikes a nice middle ground: Players are put into one of six leagues, based on a hidden ELO rating. Each league comprises approximately 20% of the playerbase, so you can get an idea of where you stand in relation to others. The top league is the top 2% of players, so that the ultra-competitive can earn that title and be proud of it. But nowhere is an actual number generated that is visible to the player, and no one has seriously complained about that.

I voted yes on this topic although I don't want the Elo rating directly visible. What you describe here is what I'd actually like.

What I also like a lot about Starcraft 2's system is how you're put in a division of just 100 players. This gives you a very visible way to see if you're doing well or if you should change strategy without having one giant ladder, where any position seems useless but the very top ones. (Like the Be A Hero Challenge for example)

It gives every player the opportunity to compete at their own skill level.

[Exoth3rmic]

Given its information collected about me - i'd like to see it.

GIven its information about me, relevant to metrics used for other people - i'd like to see others.

If its hidden it means nothing.

On top of this, the 50-50 win scenarios, I don't believe that the matchmaker does this, they even say in the command chair post that given a mismatch where you're likely expected to win - if you do win you won't move much, if you're likely to lose and lose you will again not move much. Its the mismatches where something unexpected occurs when your Elo/MM changes more.

Ofc, you can't do anything more than speculate unless you can see it with numbers in action.

As an edit - in SC2 leagues you can see Wins/Losses at the tippy top and other relevant amount-of-play stats. It isn't all blind and its not blind to the person playing it on entering the match as it tells you whether you are favoured or not and awards points accordingly at the end which you can see for ranking purposes as well as having a hidden MM.

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 28 February 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[Esplodin]

Jason Parker, on 28 February 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

This somewhat disqualifies Elo in MWO as a metric for individual skill. Thus I don't see any good coming from it being visible.

I agree wholeheartedly that Elo != Player skill. I still think that the number should be visible, if not to the player privately then in the end of round screen for the team as a whole. This can help tell you if something is "wrong" with the matchmaker, and can help people make meaningful bug reports.

The reason I say this is my games have been sorta weird since the tournament. For every 7-8 game there have been two or three 7-1 or 8-0. Heck in two matches last night we were down 2 players and rolled the other team. I also realize that Elo is being tweaked and will take time to level players. It would be nice to know where I fell in the leveling process, since my matches seem a bit too random.

And for the record, you can tank your rating for lolstompcashfarming in your tricked out hero mech without knowing what it is.

[Agent of Change]

No, we don't need yet another e-peen to measure or element for the unscrupulous to manipulate.

Also your first and 2 choice are identical because it pretty obvious releasing a number to a player will not prevent it from being public knowledge at some point.

Your 3rd choice is biased and leading, but in this case 90% correct, this information would lead to bad acts by populations of the player base and be bad for the game.

[Chaos7]

Visible Elo is bad - lots of reasons mentioned in previous posts.

However "rank" on the other hand is a cool thing that will allow people to brag and stuff, but no need to make it visible to other players while playing.

Edited by VOHRIMENKO, 28 February 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[Exoth3rmic]

Agent of Change, on 28 February 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Your 3rd choice is biased and leading, but in this case 90% correct, this information would lead to bad acts by populations of the player base and be bad for the game.

You do sound like a person capable of reason. I'm sure, on that basis, should MM rating ever be visible you would be able to present a vigorous discussion on who/what/why the number was not representative of actual performance.

Everyone else would want to use it as a yardstick to measure their progress personally within the game community - whether they had wanted to see it or not. How is this bad?

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 28 February 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Ilwrath]

Agent of Change, on 28 February 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

No, we don't need yet another e-peen to measure or element for the unscrupulous to manipulate.

I would like to see just how I am doing. Good or bad.

Agent of Change, on 28 February 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Also your first and 2 choice are identical because it pretty obvious releasing a number to a player will not prevent it from being public knowledge at some point.

So you say the stats will become public? I cannot see how Elo being visible being bad then because people will mostly focus on kill stat.

Agent of Change, on 28 February 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Your 3rd choice is biased and leading, but in this case 90% correct, this information would lead to bad acts by populations of the player base and be bad for the game.

I think I really nailed it with option 3. IMHO. All polls need a little bit of leading to get people involved.

[Edustaja]

Instead of a hard number I would be okay with a category.
Maybe percentile based.

Cadet (While cadet bonus is active and Elo is still normalizing the player to his appropriate rank)
Green 20 %
Regular 40 %
Veteran 20 %
Elite 20 %

Ranks can be further differentiated with adding numerals like Green I-IV.

[Side Step]

Exoth3rmic, on 28 February 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

(...)

As an edit - in SC2 leagues you can see Wins/Losses at the tippy top and other relevant amount-of-play stats. It isn't all blind and its not blind to the person playing it on entering the match as it tells you whether you are favoured or not and awards points accordingly at the end which you can see for ranking purposes as well as having a hidden MM.

I believe they removed losses from the profile a good while ago. Win/loss percentage and losses in general didn't tell much of any use for most players, and had mostly negative connotations. Like you said, winning against someone who's favored, is worth a lot more than winning when you're favored. So Win/lose by itself, doesn't tell anything useful.

You're right though. There are visible stats in SC2, but only enough to give you a ballpark of your and other's skill level. I believe this is a good compromize between hiding and showing the Elo matchmaking rating.

I'm never one to compete among the top players, but I personally find it fun to strive to do better in every game I play. I'd ostly be using a ranking like this on a personal level, so I know if what I'm doing actually works or not.

[Koshirou]

Hell no. The last thing I want is for griefers to know exactly how often they need to throw a game in order to go newbstomping again.

[Apoc1138]

knowing what your own Elo score is allows the player to attempt to deliberately "game" the system... so no

[Arete]

Hmm... how about not making it public, but just giving us an indicator if we've gone up/down/stood still for the last day, last week and last month? Then we can know if we've improved over time, but there's no e-peen comparison rating number.

Thoughts?

[Koshirou]

What for: You have your W/L and K/D stats, that should give you a good enough picture.

[Ilwrath]

Koshirou, on 28 February 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

What for: You have your W/L and K/D stats, that should give you a good enough picture.

Why have stats at all? Let us travel completely into lalala-land.

[Exoth3rmic]

Koshirou, on 28 February 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

What for: You have your W/L and K/D stats, that should give you a good enough picture.

Well it isn't if your basis for comparison is against other people as you don't know how they are doing unless you ask. Simply because you see your stats move forward, or one way or the other, is not indicative of improvement in relation to your MM cohort.

As an edit - it has to be said that this is only in relation to the current game mode as it exists. Whether any of this is pertinent or worth the many threads and comments in the future with CW is another thing.

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 28 February 2013 - 06:51 AM.