142 replies to this topic

[grayson marik]

TheForce, on 28 February 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

I'm sick of MinmaxWarrior/RobotJocks/WorldOfTanksWithLegs Online. Someday I hope it will be MechWarrior, or we will be able to setup private matches so the REAL MechWarriors can play together.

Edit: I forgot CheeseRobots Online - nice one stallin.

Amen!
A thousend times this!

[Ghogiel]

Bfvmg, on 28 February 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Oh My God I HOPE you are kidding!

no I am not kidding

LRM boats were always called cheese boats.

PPC STKs are cheese stalkers

DDCs are the Big Cheese

And so on.

[Hedonism Robot]

Yeah these cheese builds are getting totally redic, I was playing my catapult A-1 today and got killed by cheese every game. I am an ace pilot who has bought a lot of MC, I expect PGI to nerf these cheesebuilds soon and add better mechs to buy!

[BLUPRNT]

Ghogiel, on 28 February 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Boats. Any boat. Also ECM changes any mech into cheese.

short list:

3L ravens
AC20 cats
Splatcats
gausscats
streakmandos
3D jumphracts
DDCs
PPC STKs
LRM boats

There is a recent thread today that speculates the first Clan mechs we see and of these speculations the Nova 12ML's and Super Nova 6ERLL's are in the disussion. So how do these two fit into the definition of boat? Also if they do come into play what are we expected to do with a 6 EH assualt mech? You think Stalkers are mean, wait til they get ahold of this thing.

[Necromantion]

Royalewithcheese, on 28 February 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Wait, so 3xUAC Marmoset and brawler Stalker are cheese now?

A brawler stalker is 1 srm 6 short of a Splatcat but has 5ml to make up for it so yes it is cheese, or are you stupid?

[Splice]

You guys crack me up... All this talk about ELO and Cheese... Now I want to sit down with some 80s music and a can of Cheez Whiz and crackers.

But seriously, the game is a about: Live, Learn, Adapt... Not whine.

[TheForce]

n0e, on 28 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Real Mechwarriors don't cry like little [redacted]!

I'm not crying i'm ranting and whining you [redacted] RobotJock!

Edited by TheForce, 28 February 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Ghogiel]

BLUPRNT, on 28 February 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

There is a recent thread today that speculates the first Clan mechs we see and of these speculations the Nova 12ML's and Super Nova 6ERLL's are in the disussion. So how do these two fit into the definition of boat?

I think they'll fit in around a wensleydale or somthing creamy.

Quote

Also if they do come into play what are we expected to do with a 6 EH assualt mech? You think Stalkers are mean, wait til they get ahold of this thing.

I expect more and more cheese> lol this is a mechwarrior game last I checked. I also like cheese.

[Ransack]

Pkunk, on 28 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Ninja edit: This topic is not meant to discuss whether or not something is a cheezebuild. It is about wheter or not players have seen such a drastic difference in mechs on the battlefield.

I've seen some players state that elo has been enabled alhough I haven't seen this in the patch notes. It seems likely because my matches are becoming increasingly difficult. But not mostly because the players are more skilled but because most matches it's cheeze build galore. I hardly see anything except ravens 3L, Atlas D-DC, trip uac/5 Muromets, splatcats, splatstalkers and gausspults..

Is elo indeed enabled and is this the result? Are there more players experiencing this?

That's what I was seeing before ELO too, except now you can add poptarts and mini poptarts into the mix.

Edited by Ransack, 28 February 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Training Instructor]

It's not that good and bad players use cheese builds. Look at the thread in the battlemech guides forum that lists most common loadouts among 8 man RHOD teams.

You'll notice there's one light build there, and two caveats for Jenners and Commandos saying you almost never see them..

Any non-light player reading that thread who hasn't already bought a Raven 3L, is going to buy one if they decide to play lights. This past weekend was absolutely f***ing horrible for playing any non Raven 3L light, because they were in every match, even if your team had no light mechs.

Any player who reads these forums, and who has no particular attachment to canon, is going to play the flavor of the month or, in the case of the RAven 3L, the 3-4 month flavor, and completely ignore the Commando, Jenner, and Spider. If they're thinking of playing a heavy, they're going to decide between a cataphract and a catapult, ignoring the dragon. If they're playing a medium....oh wait, if they've read enough, they'll probably ignore that entire weight classification and focus on others. If they're playing an assault, they'll probably buy a DDC or maybe even a stalker if they're feeling saucy. They won't buy an Awesome though, because they've seen enough threads and enough games to know that an average pilot can do a lot more with a stalker or atlas than they can with an awesome.

Just look at the Cicada hero mech thread. Look at all the people complaining that Catapults, Atlases, Hunchbacks, or Ravens didn't get a hero mech. The Hback pilots are the only ones with any legitimate beef, as Catapults, Ravens, and Atlases are already extremely over-represented in this game.

Edited by Training Instructor, 28 February 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[Zeh]

To be fair, I only consider the splatcat a cheese build. The Raven is too strong right now, but that's not our fault.. and there's nothing inherently cheesy about the build, it's just too good ATM. It's still a solid, legitimate Raven build. I consider the splatcat cheese because it only wins due to common errors. And once those errors are made (by anyone on the team), a bad player suddenly gets to do much more damage than he otherwise would.

I also think the Gausscat is a bastardization of two machine gun slots.. but whatever, it's not that great.

Edited by Zeh, 28 February 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Necromantion]

I honestly agree with everything in this thread other than saying DDCs are cheese, they are semi ok to due to the output of dmg but you can get torn up fairly easily unless youre talking about boating ddc's

[NitroBurst]

A critical slot limit per hardpoint would be an interesting idea to implement...it would mean a given chassis was designed to carry A and B, but not C and D. I think what constitutes a cheese build is a build that spams the same weapon (more than 3 or 4 of the same weapon) in the same mech and that is the only source of damage it can deal. IE the so called splatapult with 6 missile hardpoints that are equipped with SRM6 x6. It is an unrealistic build (though if the option were given in reality it could probably apply to a few circumstances) but because of the "numbers" it makes it a one to two hit KO build. Then again some might argue about the LongBow (not in this game) but that is neither here nor there. Thing is though, a cheese build has severe disadvantages. They are builds that are very specific. They can be countered, but you need to know what you are facing before making that decision. 1v1 vs a Splatapult I would just stay away from it at 300m or more...and just blaze away Stalker with 4 - 6 PPCs...this one is rather a very tough one because the engagement envelope is rather large and the flippin thing has armour up the ***. A light or medium might make it through with time, skill, and a bit of luck. A heavy would have a tough time...concentrate on a leg or something and dodge. An assault mech...match the firepower I guess. There is always a way, always. Now...if we are talking about an entire team of the damn things...now THAT is where inbalance and troubles are seen.

[Ghogiel]

Ialti, on 28 February 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

My matches are actually getting easier
but there do seem to be more A1's, DDC's, and dakkadakkadakkaphracts...

Edit to include this insanity:


...Soo... everyone who gets settled into a build they like and has the capability of killing you or folks like you off is now running a cheese build? I disagree, good sir. You are horribly, utterly wrong.

err no.. Only cheese mechs are cheese mechs. Just because you like it doesn't make it cheese. You might LBX10s and small pulse lasers.

[Drehl]

imo the only cheese build that realy deserves to be called chesee build is the ctp a1 with 6 srm6..

it does an tremendous alpha, has good armor, very good speed, good heat management, jumpjets and, because of the shotgun like nature of the srms, doesn't require such a good aim as the other mentioned "cheese builds".

in addition the srm a1 is a big thread for every weightclass... the commando and raven aren't... except they're are piloted by a very good player.

other "cheese" versions of the ctp, the 2x gauss, 2x ac20 cats, do require a very steady aim to be effective. the doublegauss is fragile as hell and the double ac cat is slow and has a very limited range (and ammo).

the d-dc is imo NOT a cheese build... it doesn't have an over avarage alpha or heat or anything compared to the other assaults.
same for the 3l raven.

the only real advantage the commando and raven have over other lights is the possibility to stack ssrms and at the same time counter the ssrms of other lights. but nevertheless they aren't such a big thread for other weightclasses as the a1 cat may be.


the 6 ppc stalker is screwed once you managed to get close.. lrm boats have the same problem.



imo the issue with the a1 srm cat is that it can only mount missiles... give it a single laser hardpoint in the ct, limit its engine size to 250 and it's going to be the lrm boat (with some ssrms or srm backup) it is supposed to be.

Edited by Drehl, 28 February 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Necromantion, on 28 February 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

A brawler stalker is 1 srm 6 short of a Splatcat but has 5ml to make up for it so yes it is cheese, or are you stupid?

Please explain to me how a putting standard short-range weapons on a robot with space for a bunch of weapons (pretty much the Stalker's thing) because you want to use it to fight at short range makes it "cheese." Particularly since there's at least one canon stalker that did exactly that

Ghogiel, on 28 February 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Just because you like it doesn't make it cheese.

Wait, so the definition of "cheese" isn't "robot I don't like" or "robot that keeps killing me?"

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 28 February 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[Mai Balzak]

As much as I hate being rocked by the same builds, especially in 8mans where there are teams consisting of only 3 different mechs (from a pool of 3L's, 3D popfarts, DDCs, PPC Stalkers and Splatcats/Splatapult usually), they're effective. Yes, most of these builds have a distinct advantage over the multitude of engagements they enter. Now, I'm guilty of tossing out the cheese word in rage of such organized teams who min/max and sell their souls just for the instant gratification of winning, who would rather abuse great builds than learn to make less popular builds more effective (which is a little more my thing), and who simply want a better excuse to talk trash and increase the size of their e-peen, but with a proper level of skill and organization they can be caught on equal ground and can make for some good matches.

I will admit that the Splatapult is simply too good currently. There is no reason that the Splatapult should have as many advantages as it does. It is cheese. If you wish to argue, you're either playing one or trolling. Besides it's amazing torso twist, decent armor, rock-sauce damage and ability to 1-2 shot other mechs, none of this would be an incredible issue if it weren't for its SPEED. Unless you're in a light (or a very sprinty medium), your chances of avoiding it are slim.

I main a CTF-4X with 2 UAC5's and 2 AC5's. I love this build. It's DPS shreds enemy mechs like a cheese-grater, but the devs were smart and limited the max engine size. I run as slow as Atlases on average. When I engage, I'm pretty much committed to engaging unless I'm shooting around cover and have teammates to distract. Being a 'phract, I make a good target to focus, as I do a LOT of damage.

Let me tell you, if I had the speed of an A1, my build would be CHEESE GALORE!

Now, considering the A1's original purpose is to be LRM support, tell me exactly WHY an A1 should have as much speed as it does? Sitting in the back of a map doesn't require speed at all. Now please explain to me why a Splatapult runs as fast as quick mediums. There is no need for that. If it ran slower, it would be the perfect balance to the heavy advantages it gets for boating SRM6's. You can still get in a team fight and explode things, but it'll be harder for hit-and-run tactics (which is what smart ones will do as they dart through cover and 'splode enemy mechs), and it'll make them much more vulnerable and allow for ranged weapons to have the time to be used to balance out the damage the SRM6s will do.

Limit max engine size of CPLT-A1 to that of the CTF-4X or somewhere near that, and we will balance that out.

Lastly, for those who whine about the current FOTMs, know that the devs are always working on new content, and with each patch comes slight changes to the way people will play the game. The way we play the game will evolve; new builds will become effective. Just be patient and adapt as the game changes.

tl;dr - Nothing's cheese except the Splatapult and issues now will be replaced by issues later.

[Ghogiel]

Royalewithcheese, on 28 February 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Wait, so the definition of "cheese" isn't "robot I don't like" or "robot that keeps killing me?"

Kinda. LBX10 mechs cant be cheese even if you dont like them or they keep killing you.

It has to boat, or have 'skill' weapons like LRMs, SSRMs or ECM, or have some sort of gimmick, like jumpjets to get a cheese rating of more than 1.

[The Warspite]

People are always complaining about "cheese" builds. What makes a mech a so-called cheese build? From what I see, it's making the most out of a mech's available hardpoints to maximize alpha dmg or take advantage of a perk (like ECM). What's the line, "if you build it, they will come"... They're not cheese builds, they're the best builds and people complain about them because they hate losing to them.

What's not a cheese build then? Some horribly fitted mech?

[TheForce]

The Warspite, on 28 February 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

people complain about them because they hate losing to them.

I rant and whine about them because this game is supposed to be based on the MechWarrior RPG and Battletech TT universe. Cheese builds don't work in this universe because there is no group fire and pinpoint accuracy

I love it when I see ignorant RobotJocks/Trolls say "but there are boats in battletech look at the super nova, 4p, and longbow." Frak u RobotJock!!! These builds are not effective without group fire and pinpoint!

The sad truth...MW2, no not modern warfare ignorant RobotJock, was developed poorly, it has become the standard for ALL MW games, and because of it people think group fire and pinpoint accuracy is OK. PGI has done the best job so far to fix this but it still needs work.

RANT RANT WHINE WHINE QQ!@@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!##

Edit: i hope u all enjoy how my rage quitting is so powerful i can't seem to hit the exclamation point key all the time

Edited by TheForce, 28 February 2013 - 03:09 PM.