34 replies to this topic

[Dikaiosyne26]

I been in one too many matches where, using tactics and the bigger map dynamics, my team has utterly destroyed the opposition, only to lose because one light that never engaged capped 3 or 4 bases. It's supremely hard to intercept the little buggers with that much space given to them in anything that doesn't go Ninety miles an hour!

I love the map, and I want more big maps, but its really frustrating currently on conquest. The mechanics that work on the smaller maps with conquest just don't seem to translate to the larger maps.

There seems to be two games that are going on. The normal one, where your trying to destroy the other team, the one that people want to play, and the one that matters for the win, of lights, racing to capture points independently of the other team. This is made worse with type matching being thrown out the window with the new matchmaker. You're just even guaranteed to have tools you need to even play the second game!

Trying to have forces or players that guard points isn't the answer really either, since they are too vulnerable to concentrated force pushes, and also takes firepower away from the main force, making them more liable to be destroyed themselves.

I just want when I drop in a non-light to have a feeling that I can contribute to a win, not just a moral victory or a "well we destroyed your entire team except a light so we lose," and have that win bear some resembalance to what happened on 90% of the battlefield.

[One Medic Army]

Maybe you should split off a mech or two from the main brawl (mediums or lights) to go cap points while the assaults vector in on the main enemy group.

Alpine on conquest is great specifically because it's a map/mode combo where blobbing is not the strongest tactic.

[CarpetShark]

If it's any consolation, the capping mech gets nothing for its efforts. Even the evidently cryptically named "Capture Assist" line in the XP breakdown remains set to 0.

One wonders what "capture assist" might refer to, given that it manifestly has nothing to do with capturing...

[xenoglyph]

My best matches on Alpine have been conquest. Usually turns into 2 simultaneous fights plus little skirmishes here and there, always keeps me on my toes.

[Zeroskills]

One Medic Army, on 28 February 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

Maybe you should split off a mech or two from the main brawl (mediums or lights) to go cap points while the assaults vector in on the main enemy group.

Alpine on conquest is great specifically because it's a map/mode combo where blobbing is not the strongest tactic.

That sound good in theory, but I have had matches where the other team had 4 Ravens and we had 0 lights. If we stick together the Ravens outcap us. If we split up, the Ravens pick us off. If the MM didn't **** up on weight class so much it wouldn't be so big of an issue.

[One Medic Army]

Zeroskills, on 28 February 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

That sound good in theory, but I have had matches where the other team had 4 Ravens and we had 0 lights. If we stick together the Ravens outcap us. If we split up, the Ravens pick us off. If the MM didn't **** up on weight class so much it wouldn't be so big of an issue.

Yeah, that one's hard to deal with.
Hopefully the Raven 3Ls will stop being so much better than their 35tons some time soon, and hopefully the matchmaker will stop having matches where one side has 4 lights (or 4 assaults) to none on the other team.

[Fitzbattleaxe]

Had an amazing match on alpine the other day. Enemy was down to a single spider. We'd taken all the capture points, but they were at 730ish points (as a few minutes earlier they'd had four capture points), and we weren't in a position to be covering everything. Spider makes a run for gamma, I blow his left leg off from 900m with a uac5 just as gamma goes neutral, but he moves behind cover before I can kill him. As we lose the match, I can see a volley of LRMs hit gamma, and had the arrived even 5 seconds sooner, it could have made the difference. I love when they're that close.

[DeadlyNerd]

I already posted a suggestion for utilizing alpine in 8v8, the day it was released, but I guess people have to learn the hard way to understand why alpine is currently too big for 8v8.

Oh and don't give me that "but lights, but" crap. I've yet to see a light that utilizes the area between kappa and theta besides just running through it to cap both points.
Even tactics, srsly, everything is fought out right in the middle under that highest peak. You all just head there like lemmings and then argue that that is called tactics.

And if you're not convinced, I just had a conq win where a commando and I never entered a fight and won by points just cause the other team didn't have any fast movers. It was ******* boring and if that's what takes to win, the map's bad, or at least point distribution on 8v8.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 28 February 2013 - 01:35 AM.

[xenoglyph]

The real problem isn't that Alpine is good or bad, it's that players have no control over which map they drop on.

I finally gave in and started only playing the maps I want to play like everyone else...

cd /level
mv *.pak *.bak

Edited by xenoglyph, 28 February 2013 - 01:39 AM.

[DeadlyNerd]

In all honesty I'd enjoy the alpine a lot more if it was cut down to at least 2/3 for 8v8 fights. NOBODY is utilizing the rest of the map, NOBODY. If you're that nobody you're being a useless RPer that isn't helping his team.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 28 February 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Jerod Drekmor]

DeadlyNerd, on 28 February 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

In all honesty I'd enjoy the alpine a lot more if it was cut down to at least 2/3 for 8v8 fights. NOBODY is utilizing the rest of the map, NOBODY. If you're that nobody you're being a useless RPer that isn't helping his team.

It almost feels as being rp player is a bad thing.....
Although Alpine should have points spread difrently cuz right now there are lots of space unused.

[Hawkeye 72]

I respectfully disagree with your stance. Some of the best games of MWO I have played have been on Alpine with Conquest!

Then again, some of the worst have been played on there too...

The key difference is the players you are matched with. If you get a good group who coordinate and work together, the match will be enjoyable. The key is to utilize your light/medium mechs to capture the far points and locate the bulk of the enemy forces. Once located, you move your assaults/heavies towards the aforementioned enemy blob, while the mediums/lights begin their own struggle to maintain the cap points. Success in the game depends on both groups to effectively do their job. This is great if you like a little depth to your game and bad if you just want to shoot people. I've had some awesome games played on that map, including one where a last minute capture secured us a 750-744 victory. That finish is in my top 5 MWO games ever played.

[Bullseye69]

Just so everyone knows Alpine was designed for 12 vs 12 which comes in April it was in a forum post by devs. So cut them a little slack and once your force has the upper hand peal off a mech or two to set on the capture points. If your up by 3 kills then you have a spare mech to set on cap point. That will keep them from doing a ring around the rose on you. Yes I know in pug that hard to do so drop in 4 man squads.

[Lyrik]

Mimimimimi... the noobs in their Steiner Scout Lances get their ***** handed by a fast mech. I don't see any problems with that.

But ELO will help you.
With more maps like Alpine you will loose more matches. Your Elo will drop and you will be matched with more assaultsfan like you who only wants to brawl xD

Have a nice day and enjoy your future in Brawlwarrioronline xD

Edited by Lyrik, 28 February 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[Pihb]

Yes

[Triggerhippy]

Dikaiosyne26, on 28 February 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

I been in one too many matches where, using tactics and the bigger map dynamics, my team has utterly destroyed the opposition, only to lose because one light that never engaged capped 3 or 4 bases. It's supremely hard to intercept the little buggers with that much space given to them in anything that doesn't go Ninety miles an hour!

I love the map, and I want more big maps, but its really frustrating currently on conquest. The mechanics that work on the smaller maps with conquest just don't seem to translate to the larger maps.

There seems to be two games that are going on. The normal one, where your trying to destroy the other team, the one that people want to play, and the one that matters for the win, of lights, racing to capture points independently of the other team. This is made worse with type matching being thrown out the window with the new matchmaker. You're just even guaranteed to have tools you need to even play the second game!

Trying to have forces or players that guard points isn't the answer really either, since they are too vulnerable to concentrated force pushes, and also takes firepower away from the main force, making them more liable to be destroyed themselves.

I just want when I drop in a non-light to have a feeling that I can contribute to a win, not just a moral victory or a "well we destroyed your entire team except a light so we lose," and have that win bear some resembalance to what happened on 90% of the battlefield.

so your saying your assault tactics don't work on conquest because the other team has taken a fast mech youcanct fight and out caps you.... Your tactics need to change my friend, just because some plays to win in a differant style to you doesn't make them wrong. It means youand your team are not as uber as you thought and your tactics are lacking.
When I play conquest with my team we have lights capping and a fighting lance for tieing up the enemy so they can't counter cap.
Sounds like you are falling foul to that tactic. Learn from it - don't moan and blame the map - it makes you sound like a poor looser and being any kind of looser is bad enough without being a poor one

[TopDawg]

Alpine is (or at least when 12s are introduced, will be) my favorite map to date.

For better or worse, there are two games that are developing side by side in MWO: that of the competitive, organized 8/12 person groups, and that of the more casual, log in and have fun, shoot stuff, Lonewolf type of player. Now I'm not saying that anyone should want to play one way or the other, but it is important to recognize that these game experiences are going to (and in some cases vastly) differ. I do think however, that content in general (on the balance side of things anyway for sure) needs to be balanced around the more competitive side.

Now that that's out of the way, Alpine on Conquest only has one really glaring flaw; the 750 cap limit is too low for the size of the map (and I don't think 12s will really resolve this either). If you get off to an early lead, you're pretty much guaranteed to win. And regardless, you're often left with a 'it's over already?' feeling (presumably due to the longer travel times and less 'doing stuff').

For the first time though, Conquest finally has the chance to work as designed. Whereas on the smaller maps the prevailing tactic (because it works) is to simply kill the enemy team, or enough of them, to then go around and secure points, that now will simply lead to being outcapped most every time; the way it should be. Strategy now has to be deeper, as other posters have alluded to.

What's really the problem though when things go 'a little ca-ca' (bonus points if you get the reference!), is the unfortunate side effect of Elo not currently matching weight classes. If you're on Conquest and have zero Lights when they have 2-3 (or even just one), you're pretty much screwed before your Mech even powers up.

[Lupin]

Yes sadly ELO needs to include some common sense in weight classes.

Conquest with a lot of Lights on Alpine easier then heavy and assault which does require team work.

Often 4 lights one 1 side and 1 light on the other match over.

[Elizander]

I usually just queue for conquest and not assault and I've been running fast mechs lately (70kph+) so it's not really an issue.

[MonkeyCheese]

A map of alpines size is just screaming for a 1 team defends a fortress and the 2nd team attacks the fortress game mode.

What mountain route will the enemy take to assault your base or will they come over a peak?

Should you stay and defend or try to meet your attacker half way?

Should you deploy a UAV to the less obvious path to keep an eye on it?

Another idea
Drop ship mode where once destroyed you can pick a different location to drop/spawn into. Where will your enemy come from next?

oh maps of this size just scream possibilities =D