36 replies to this topic

[Sifright]

Zero Neutral, on 03 March 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Actually blowing off an arm with no components in it will not give the components destroyed bonus. The bonus only accrues when an internal component is destroyed.

Nope.

[GhostFacedNinja]

Hmm I was under the impression that if you crit, you do an additional 2x damage to internals? So with a machine gun this is 0.4 + and additional 0.8 if you crit? So I am assuming you are getting lots of crits (about 42% if I recall correctly) just not noticing them much...

Edit: Oh my bad, they have a chance to do 0.5, 1, or 1.5 damage. But the point holds really. You wont notice "A" crit. Internals will just die faster than armour.

Edited by GhostFacedNinja, 03 March 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Not Internals. Just Components (Medium Lasers, PPCs, ECM, BAP, AMS).

[sC4r]

GhostFacedNinja, on 03 March 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Hmm I was under the impression that if you crit, you do an additional 2x damage to internals? So with a machine gun this is 0.4 + and additional 0.8 if you crit? So I am assuming you are getting lots of crits (about 42% if I recall correctly) just not noticing them much...

nope when you crit you will do dmg to component in the section in addition to dmg mech... well you have to have that section stripped off armor

as for the dmg mg deals the chances are 39% for 0.5, 28% 1.0 and 6% 1.5 dmg so thats kinda high chances to get a crit to items

[GhostFacedNinja]

sC4r, on 03 March 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

nope when you crit you will do dmg to component in the section in addition to dmg mech... well you have to have that section stripped off armor

as for the dmg mg deals the chances are 39% for 0.5, 28% 1.0 and 6% 1.5 dmg so thats kinda high chances to get a crit to items

Yes I did have a look and see that. But the point I was attempting to make was that. You wont notice a crit with them. Components in the section will just die faster. But then if you fire into an unarmoured section with any weapon, components will die quickly.
I would really like machine guns to be decent. If they kept the current crit thing and upped the damage against armour they would be worth bringing. Wouldn't take much more, say 0.08 per bullet? So double.

[verybad]

I'm using a stock Cat-K2 (bought it with the sale this weekend) with the mgs still on, and quite frankly I like them. I may have done one point of damage with them over the course of several games so far, might have gotten a crit or two, but I've not been attacked by infantry since I started using them...maybe frightened them off?

MGs are worth the low weight loss just for their awesome sounds and look.

I don't think MGs should be effective versus armor ever. I didn't like them when people boated them and got instakills in previous games.

They're ridiculous to even consider an antiinfantry weapon being effective verse armor, as side weapons that have a somewhat decent chance at getting a crit versus damaged mechs, I think that's enough.

Edited by verybad, 03 March 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[Sifright]

verybad, on 03 March 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

I'm using a stock Cat-K2 (bought it with the sale this weekend) with the mgs still on, and quite frankly I like them. I may have done one point of damage with them over the course of several games so far, might have gotten a crit or two, but I've not been attacked by infantry since I started using them...maybe frightened them off?

MGs are worth the low weight loss just for their awesome sounds and look.

I don't think MGs should be effective versus armor ever. I didn't like them when people boated them and got instakills in previous games.

They're ridiculous to even consider an antiinfantry weapon being effective verse armor, as side weapons that have a somewhat decent chance at getting a crit versus damaged mechs, I think that's enough.

> calls a 20MM Auto cannon anti infantry weapon

> states it shouldn't hurt mechs when it does just as much damage as an AC/2 In TT

> Thinks a weapon that weighs the same amount as a small laser before ammo should do 1/5th the damage of a small laser whilst having a much harder firing mechanic.

Welp.

Edited by Sifright, 03 March 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Fred013]

Quote

- The Machine Gun has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the Machine Gun crits, it will deal 12.5x the amount of normal damage per bullet to an internal item.
- The Machine Gun crit damage is 12.5 x 0.04 = 0.5 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 1.5.
- Due to the rate of fire, the Machine Gun is now a heavy crit seeker and will be VERY effective vs. items on non-armoured locations.

From patch notes.

Edited by Fred013, 03 March 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Fred013, on 03 March 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

From patch notes.

Read it carefully. It says "Item". That's how Crits in Mechwarrior work. They never deal extra damage. They just blow off weapons and ECM and crap.

[verybad]

Sifright, on 03 March 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

> calls a 20MM Auto cannon anti infantry weapon

It's a POS weapon in TT also, except against infantry.

Quote

> states it shouldn't hurt mechs when it does just as much damage as an AC/2 In TT

Yeah, and TT isn't balanced for real time play. Do you think the AC2 would ever be carried in this game if it were just a long ranged MG? TT sucks, it's poorly balanced in it's own genre let alone this one.

Quote

> Thinks a weapon that weighs the same amount as a small laser before ammo should do 1/5th the damage of a small laser whilst having a much harder firing mechanic.

No heat, continuous fire, not at all a much harder firing mechanic.

Quote

Welp.

Using TT as a support for your argument won't make this a better RT game. The fact is, TT supplies some good fluff and background to the game, as well as factions. It provides a basis to work from, but it's an aweful rules system that is bloated and has so many bolted on fixes that it's amazing.

The reason Battletech has survived so long as a game is because of the tremendously deeo background and fluff that it provides. The game itself is so so at best.

I love battletech myself, but it's certainly not based around MGs being viable anti armor weapons. They're not in battletech unless huge amounts are carried, and that's quite flattly, stupid.

[Sprouticus]

The only reason to take mg's right now is on the Spider and Raven variants. Maybe the cicada one as well.


Putting an AC2 or AC5 on those mechs costs too much from a weight standpoint. So you have ballistics based light mechs with no real weapons to use. A couple of mg's is really the only option. Low tonnage, but low ROI too.

In the end I personally just skip those variants. The Spider for instance I just leveled with GXP.

[Sprouticus]

VB is right about the MG & flamer. Those weapons have been bad in every single mechwarrior game. They just doing work well against mechs.


In conbined arms games (MWLL, mechcommander) they have some value against infantry and armor, but in a mech only game they will pretty much always be useless. Frankly I don't even know why the Devs are trying to balance those weapons. The ROI for their time spent is fairly low.

The LBX on the other hand is worth balancing, especially if they push the timeline forward in a year or 2.

[FupDup]

Sprouticus, on 03 March 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

VB is right about the MG & flamer. Those weapons have been bad in every single mechwarrior game. They just doing work well against mechs.

In MW3, MGs of all kinds were hella OP (take any mech with 16 Light/Normal/Heavy MGs and target the CT of a Daishi, hilarity will ensue) and Flamers could make people's reactors explode (leaving nothing but tiny little chunks of debris and a crater).


I also still find it pretty illogical for an alleged (some people want it this way for some reason ) "anti-infantry only" weapon to have a similar weight as anti-everything weapons that also get more range (small laser, medium laser, small pulse laser). Just kill the infantry with a friggin' laser (or even SRM2). No MGs required.

If you seriously want to keep MGs this way, just remove them from the game code and get it over with. Remove the Spider 5K, Cicada 3C, and the Raven 4X while you're at it, because none of those mechs can fill all of their ballistic slots with non-MGs without seriously gimping themselves.

Edited by FupDup, 03 March 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[GhostFacedNinja]

verybad, on 03 March 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

I'm using a stock Cat-K2 (bought it with the sale this weekend) with the mgs still on, and quite frankly I like them. I may have done one point of damage with them over the course of several games so far, might have gotten a crit or two, but I've not been attacked by infantry since I started using them...maybe frightened them off?

MGs are worth the low weight loss just for their awesome sounds and look.

I don't think MGs should be effective versus armor ever. I didn't like them when people boated them and got instakills in previous games.

They're ridiculous to even consider an antiinfantry weapon being effective verse armor, as side weapons that have a somewhat decent chance at getting a crit versus damaged mechs, I think that's enough.

Why include an anti-infantry weapon in a game without infantry? I want every weapon to be viable, machine guns nor flamers currently are. The awesome sound and look are not enough.
As I said it wont take much of a boost to make them ok. I'm not asking them to be anything like ACs. Just slightly more punch than they currently have and they will be usable.

[verybad]

FupDup, on 03 March 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

In MW3, MGs of all kinds were hella OP (take any mech with 16 Light/Normal/Heavy MGs and target the CT of a Daishi, hilarity will ensue) and Flamers could make people's reactors explode (leaving nothing but tiny little chunks of debris and a crater).

As I said, ridiculous amounts of them.

Thankfully you can't do that in this game. 16 was powerful, even in MW3 4 would not be.

[TOPGUN Stinger]

verybad, on 03 March 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

MGs are worth the low weight loss just for their awesome sounds and look.

Too close for missles, I'm switching to guns.

[Sifright]

verybad, on 03 March 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

It's a POS weapon in TT also, except against infantry.

nope it did 2 damage for half a tonne in TT it was a good short range filler weapon.

verybad, on 03 March 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

No heat, continuous fire, not at all a much harder firing mechanic.

Continuous firing is why the firing mechanic is harder and WORSE. Constantly holding on target to achieve maximum dps is bad it means you can't evade or torso twist with out destroying your damage output. Something you can do with every other weapon in the game when the weapon is already trash to begin with any way.....

verybad, on 03 March 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Using TT as a support for your argument won't make this a better RT game. The fact is, TT supplies some good fluff and background to the game, as well as factions. It provides a basis to work from, but it's an aweful rules system that is bloated and has so many bolted on fixes that it's amazing.

You are using table top arguments to support your end of the deal and crying foul when i point out it does just as much damage to mechs as a dedicated anti mech weapon the AC/2. The MG simply gets a buff to infantry killing which the AC/2 doesn't get.

verybad, on 03 March 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

The reason Battletech has survived so long as a game is because of the tremendously deeo background and fluff that it provides. The game itself is so so at best.

I love battletech myself, but it's certainly not based around MGs being viable anti armor weapons. They're not in battletech unless huge amounts are carried, and that's quite flattly, stupid.

Except there are light mechs in the game right now that have mostly ballistic slots. With out a viable light weight ballistic weapon those mechs are worthless.

There is absolutely no legitimate reason not to make the MG do between 0.8 and 0.12 damage a bullet given it's firing mechanic and the typical penalties associated with carrying ammo especially in light mechs which have their armour stripped so easily.