40 replies to this topic

[Comassion]

There's a misconception on the forums that in TT, 'streaks always hit'.

This is a half-truth. The real truth is that streaks miss and hit with the same hit rate as a standard SRM. The difference is that when streaks miss in TT, they don't fire, which preserves your heat and ammo - the pilot still needs to roll to hit, and the end result is that Streaks don't hit more often than SRMS do (every missile in the group hits rather than rolling on the chart, so they do slightly more damage over time).

What we've got now is auto-hit streaks, and that needs to change. There needs to be a way to 'miss' with streaks that doesn't involve them firing.

That can come in the form of either lock-on changes, or a skill-based method of firing the weapon.

For lock-on changes, you should need to be much more precise than currently when acquiring and holding a lock. Not having the crosshairs on the target for a fairly small amount of time should break that lock and force you to re-acquire the target before firing again. Once that's implemented, then light fights can be much more interesting, because there can be an actual strategy that'll work when fighting against a streak user, and that's to dance around and be very unpredictable and use small pieces of intervening terrain to make the lock on you very difficult to maintain. Right now none of that works, and a streak user can keep you locked through pretty much anything you'd care to try.

The other option is to have Streaks not lock at all. Instead, when you click the fire button, the weapon cooldown starts, but they'll only fire if you actually clicked on a 'mech. If you clicked on empty space, they don't fire (but are still on cooldown to prevent repeat click-until-you-hit). The main advantage this gives you is that you don't need to lead your target and they're still auto-hit when they fire, but it adds a much greater element of skill to the weapon while still being very dangerous and effective.

Thoughts?

[Zakie Chan]

They should make getting and maintaining locks entirely based on maintaining reticle in target box. Give a 0.2 sec window to leave. Furthermore there needs to be a limit to the path the ssrm is able to take to target. Remove the impossible angle shots and force a limitation to maximum direction change. (ie Mech jump jets or circles quickly away)

Streaks should function more like lrms but with an increase in lock sensitivity. Make it easier to lose lock. There needs to be a deviation from BT values and characteristics in favour of a system that isn't so easy to exploit. With a % reduction in flight mechanics and forcing user to actually maintain lock would greatly help balance the weapon.

As we get ssrm6 the problem will only be compounded unless streaks change from missles that never miss to missles that usually hit.

[Kraven Kor]

I think they should just require you lock-on individually for every shot, rather than how it is now where once you are locked on you stay locked on until forced to do a 180+ turn thus losing target for a second.

I think LRM's should be the same way though.

[Zyllos]

Honestly, if they seperated the locking mechanics of LRMs and SSRMs, then I think they can begin to balance SSRMs.

Right now, Artemis and 1km+ locking distance, effects SSRMs. You can equip the Artemis FCS (without LRMs) and the lockon speed of SSRMs will be effected because LRMs and SSRMs use the same locking mechanics in game. You can also lockon with SSRMs over 270m because they use the same locking as LRMs.

Once SSRMs and LRMs use completely different locking mechanics, then we can begin to see balance between SSRMs and the rest of the game.

Edited by Zyllos, 04 March 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Syllogy]

If you insist on having TT rules, then I will insist that all weapons have a standard 10 second cooldown.

[Roughneck45]

Maybe just a straight damage nerf.

A while back, before ECM, when the 6Slas jenner was king, people didn't rely on streaks. Then PGI found a bug where streaks were only doing 50% of their damage.

Then they fixed the bug.

Streaks started to matter in the light game, and the Streakcat was born.

Then comes ECM.

Certainly put a stop to LRM warrior online, and made the streakcat extinct, but it completley borked light balance. The light role used to be rewarding for the highly skilled pilot. High speed straffing runs with pin point laser accuracy are a thing of the past. Now you just load up the streaks and hope you can out ECM them.

I don't mind streaks being guaranteed to hit supplamental damage, but something is definitely off in the skill-to-use/payoff equation.

Maybe if you lost streak lock the second you took your aim off.

I don't think ECM is OP, but the way streaks, ECM, and netcode all interact with eachother for lights is just toxic right now.

Edited by Roughneck45, 04 March 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Increase streak lock times 30-50% AND let them dumbfire without lock.

That way you can actually juke a lock and standing on the fire button isn't a great idea.

[AndyHill]

There's a big difference between always hitting and never missing. The SSRMs as intended and as they should be for balance reasons should be (closer to) the latter, making them an efficient weapon. Now they're (almost totally) the former, making them an extremely effective weapon, which is against the original idea and causes imbalance in game design.

Syllogy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

If you insist on having TT rules, then I will insist that all weapons have a standard 10 second cooldown.

Well pure TT rules probably wouldn't work as such, but I'd be fine with 10sec cooldown.

[Josef Nader]

I agree that they shouldn't fire unless your reticule is inside the targeting box. That'd certainly help.

[Jestun]

I'd go even further, I'd suggest losing lock when you fire.

This means that usage of SSRM will be:

1. Aim
2. Maintain aim to lock
3. Fire
4. Goto 1

In the same way that lasers are currently:

1. Aim
2. Fire
3. Maintain aim due to lasers being DoT instead of instant damage
4. Goto 1



Locking takes time, and can take longer than the amount of time a laser needs to be aimed in some circumstances, but because it retains the lock it means that it needs less aim for consecutive shots.

[Zyllos]

Syllogy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

If you insist on having TT rules, then I will insist that all weapons have a standard 10 second cooldown.

While I would be fine with that change, this is really just a Strawman argument.

[EyeOne]

Comassion, on 04 March 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

There's a misconception on the forums that in TT, 'streaks always hit'.

This is a half-truth. The real truth is that streaks miss and hit with the same hit rate as a standard SRM. The difference is that when streaks miss in TT, they don't fire, which preserves your heat and ammo - the pilot still needs to roll to hit, and the end result is that Streaks don't hit more often than SRMS do (every missile in the group hits rather than rolling on the chart, so they do slightly more damage over time).

What we've got now is auto-hit streaks, and that needs to change. There needs to be a way to 'miss' with streaks that doesn't involve them firing.

That can come in the form of either lock-on changes, or a skill-based method of firing the weapon.

For lock-on changes, you should need to be much more precise than currently when acquiring and holding a lock. Not having the crosshairs on the target for a fairly small amount of time should break that lock and force you to re-acquire the target before firing again. Once that's implemented, then light fights can be much more interesting, because there can be an actual strategy that'll work when fighting against a streak user, and that's to dance around and be very unpredictable and use small pieces of intervening terrain to make the lock on you very difficult to maintain. Right now none of that works, and a streak user can keep you locked through pretty much anything you'd care to try.

The other option is to have Streaks not lock at all. Instead, when you click the fire button, the weapon cooldown starts, but they'll only fire if you actually clicked on a 'mech. If you clicked on empty space, they don't fire (but are still on cooldown to prevent repeat click-until-you-hit). The main advantage this gives you is that you don't need to lead your target and they're still auto-hit when they fire, but it adds a much greater element of skill to the weapon while still being very dangerous and effective.

Thoughts?

I agree x1000. The Streak mechanic in this game is terrible terrible. It's a guaranteed hit with no effort from the pilot.
The implementation of Streaks is this games biggest problem, imo (assuming it's working as intended it's just bad game design) (aside from netcode and other things that are still in progress)

Edited by EyeOne, 04 March 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Josef Nader]

@Jestun The problem with that is that it goes against what Streaks have been established as. If you have a lock at the point of firing, your missiles are guaranteed damage. They never miss, they just don't fire.

Edited by Josef Nader, 04 March 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Do streaks have any kind of spread?

I get the impression that they ALWAYS hit center torso if shot at from the front.

[Syllogy]

Terror Teddy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Do streaks have any kind of spread?

I get the impression that they ALWAYS hit center torso if shot at from the front.

Yes, they have a spread.

SSRMs are designed to lock on to a random joint on the mech. (Knees, Elbows, Feet, Torso, etc.)

[Yokaiko]

Terror Teddy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Do streaks have any kind of spread?

I get the impression that they ALWAYS hit center torso if shot at from the front.

Yeah, you can block with you arms, but you can also game the launch si they arc around.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that this game is a literal translation of TT.

Now I'm not arguing that Streaks couldn't use a tweak, but there's no doubt in my mind that if the primary point of contention is whether or not anything should follow TT literally, considering that game in now way accounted for human skill/coordination in a realistic form, is probably a flawed concept.

The game is meant to be in the spirit of TT, BT, the novels etc. It's not meant to be a 100% translation of the TT rules into a RT-Simulator. Approaching it from that viewpoint isn't within the Dev's vision, so arguing that something should follow TT specifically, is not as helpful or as balancing as one might think.

Ultimately, argue the merits, solutions etc without getting bogged down in TT molasses and you'll likely get a better, more constructive discussion. TT/Lore mandates or doctrine just gets any discussion around here derailed.

[AndyHill]

It may be completely by chance, but streaks done according to TT spirit would be better for gameplay in a real-time simulator (for example MWO).

[MayGay]

AMS shooting down 1-6 SSRMs would do it

[Taemien]

The issue with streaks is they are a crutch for players fighting lights. Thats where the ECM 'issue' comes in. ECM kicks out that crutch. If Streaks were just as hard to hit with (or lockon in this case) then players would use other weapons in conjunction.

Well at least thats the idea. But in reality they would probably whine and moan. Most players probably secretly or subconsciously wish that streaks were unaffected by ECM and could just destroy lights with impunity and would be fine with the fact that lights would be useless in most fights. Getting back to the 'proper MWO' of assault brawling.

What should probably happen with streaks, as to make them useful on light mechs but less so on heavier machines is reduce the damage to 2.0 (they all hit, just like Lasers all hit if you aim them at something, so they don't need increased damage like SRMs and LRMs against double armor). Increase the lockon time by 1 second. And drop the lock after each time they fire.

Right now the only streak launcher is the SSRM2. With those changes above, they would be pretty much a waste of a hardpoint (just like small lasers are) for anything heavier than a Cicada (even though it cannot mount them). At least until 4s and 6s are introduced. Because they would take too long to lock and fire every cycle the damage output would be small. Consistent but small. They would still be useful on the smaller mechs because they could run in, Lock, Fire, And get the heck out of Dodge.

If ECM totally decimates their use after these changes then I would suggest allowing them to lockon the target through ECM IF they can target the mech for the lock and not the targeting square. Maybe even increase the lockon time a bit more when doing this.

So now you have a skill based launcher that is only useful on light mechs. Removes the crutch players have against light mechs and forces players to use lasers to effectively deal with lights. Of course like I said, the whining and moaning about Jenners will be rampant (as it was in CB). But at least you'll see every light being used.

Edited by Taemien, 04 March 2013 - 09:47 AM.