19 replies to this topic

[Nullzero]

"Performance On March 5th Host State Rewind (HSR) goes live. This new system allows players with high latency pings to fire and hit more reliably using Lasers, Machine Guns, and Flamers.
Often referred to as the lag shield effect, HSR will significantly improve the reliability and accuracy of weapon hit detection, making certain BattleMechs much easier to hit. We anticipate overall damage will increase, resulting in some possible upcoming weapon balancing changes if needed."

Is there any word on whether this is coming for ballistic weapons as well? I have never had too much difficulty hitting people with lasers. My ping averages around 180-200ms. My problem is ballistic weapons. My big floppy Wang with its AC/20 has missed SO MANY times due to poor ballistic netcode. Or, I have hit a target square in the torso on my screen, only to have no damage register on the paper doll or crosshair.

So, will ballistic weapons also be compatible with the new HSR feature? If not, are there plans for it? Or maybe some other plans to improve how ballistic weapons are handled?

[Fenris Krinkovich]

It affects everything, I think, but the weapons with a duration will benefit the most.

[Chrithu]

Phase 1 is only for hitscan. Phase 2 will be projectile weapons. This is because they work a little differently and thus state rewind must also be handled differently.

As far as I understood it for hitscan for every update your client sends saying you are currently shooting laser it looks where you aim at and rewinds the state of your target to see if and where you hit it.

For a projectile weapons you send a singular update saying I've shot a projectile. The server then spawns the projectile at the according direction and speed, rewinds your target's position and then runs the usual forward simulation moving both the rewinded target and the projectile to see if it hits.

[OneEyed Jack]

The major problem with the whole thing is... we're all gonna hafta learn to shoot all over again.

I dunno about anyone else, but I had a terrible time for awhile when they started fixing the netcode because I was leading way to far and shooting in front of everything,

OK, so I occasionally over-compensate.

[Nullzero]

Jason Parker, on 04 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Phase 1 is only for hitscan. Phase 2 will be projectile weapons. This is because they work a little differently and thus state rewind must also be handled differently.

As far as I understood it for hitscan for every update your client sends saying you are currently shooting laser it looks where you aim at and rewinds the state of your target to see if and where you hit it.

For a projectile weapons you send a singular update saying I've shot a projectile. The server then spawns the projectile at the according direction and speed, rewinds your target's position and then runs the usual forward simulation moving both the rewinded target and the projectile to see if it hits.

Thanks for this! I wasn't aware that the weapon netcode updates were coming in two phases.

Ohhh man... my Wang is gonna be all up in peoples' butts when that Phase 2 update comes out.

[ciller]

Running fifty matches or so should re-tune your aim, no big deal.

[Lefty Lucy]

I'm pretty sure that ballistics already shoot where they look like they're shooting, but the fire delay is how the game handles your latency.

[Davers]

Nullzero, on 04 March 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Ohhh man... my Wang is gonna be all up in peoples' butts when that Phase 2 update comes out.

Nullzero, on 04 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

My big floppy Wang ...

You would have thought Wang jokes would have come and gone by now, yet they continue to spit out comedy gold.

[Mike Townsend]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that ballistics already shoot where they look like they're shooting, but the fire delay is how the game handles your latency.

The problem is that the delay isn't consistent from shot to shot and it looks like the direction of fire is from the point where you originally fired. Sometimes it seems like the rounds are shooting sideways. (This is even more obvious with missiles.) It makes actually hitting anything with ballistics really hard. Needing to lead with lasers is more visually odd, but it's still generally possible to get a reasonable percentage of the beam damage on target. Ballistics you just miss. Not liking ballistic shots to be rolls of the lag dice is the main reason I tend towards lasers, even though I'd prefer to run all ballistics all the time. That and machinegun damage being nonexistent..

[Fooooo]

The fire delay is due to response time afaik.

You press fire.

A packet is sent, server gets the packet and says ok you want to fire, checks your cooldowns etc etc and spawns a shot if it thinks your allowed to. (on the server)

Packet sent back to client saying to spawn the animation.
( Client sees weapon firing. )
Server sends packet to client with results of shot.
( Client sees dmg or no dmg on the ragdoll + aimer light up or not light up etc)

Lasers (and flamers and MG's) work differently (faster) because they are hitscan and don't have to be "run" in a sense. at least afaik.

Edited by Fooooo, 04 March 2013 - 09:25 PM.

[Tarman]

Davers, on 04 March 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

You would have thought Wang jokes would have come and gone by now, yet they continue to spit out comedy gold.

The Wangs keep coming. You can't hold back a Wang when it's gonna spit out.

[Chemistry Warden]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that ballistics already shoot where they look like they're shooting, but the fire delay is how the game handles your latency.

For me, fire delay is either non-existent, or I've gotten to a point where I don't even have to think about compensating for it. The problem is when a light shakes off an ac/20 round like it's nothing, even though I see it hit (complete with animation).

[BrandeX]

Tarman, on 04 March 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

The Wangs keep coming. You can't hold back a Wang when it's gonna spit out.

It's not pronounced like people seem to think it is.
(hint: in "English" it would be spelled "wong" (and sometimes is!))

But on topic, I'm glad the devs have fixed the accuracy of the flamer and machine guns, which everyone has been clamoring for!

...or not =)

Edited by BrandeX, 05 March 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Lonestar1771]

now if they could only fix the convergence problem

BrandeX, on 05 March 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

It's not pronounced like people seem to think it is.
(hint: in "English" it would be spelled "wong" (and sometimes is!))

I'd rather have a Wong Wang than a short one.

Edited by Lonestar1771, 05 March 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Kaspirikay]

Yay state rewind

[zmeul]

I see a problem with this "rewind" state
and the problem is that the communication between the server and the client is happening in 2 steps

let's take my case as example, I play with 140+ms ping, but that 140 translates into 280ms because of 2 way communication
I see, I fire (1) - server receives the fire order, server calculates outcome (2) - client receives outcome (3)
1) moment zero
2) 140ms later
3) 280ms later
the problem is that moment zero is already 140ms late, and this is not taking into consideration the target's latency

this is not the 1st time I talk about this, and as I said my on past post, the solution I propose is to sacrificially give everyone in the match the same latency as the biggest latency in the match
so, if I have the biggest latency, everyone plays at default 140ms delay - this way, moment zero is always at 0ms delay

[SkkyHigh]

Step #1 Move to Canada.
Step #2 Get a 10ms ping or lower.
Step #3 Blow up mechs cause I've got no fire delay.
Step #4 Hope that one day everyone learns that smoking pot cures QQ Threads and makes LAG Shields dissolve.

[Chrithu]

zmeul, on 05 March 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

I see a problem with this "rewind" state
and the problem is that the communication between the server and the client is happening in 2 steps

let's take my case as example, I play with 140+ms ping, but that 140 translates into 280ms because of 2 way communication
I see, I fire (1) - server receives the fire order, server calculates outcome (2) - client receives outcome (3)
1) moment zero
2) 140ms later
3) 280ms later
the problem is that moment zero is already 140ms late, and this is not taking into consideration the target's latency

this is not the 1st time I talk about this, and as I said my on past post, the solution I propose is to sacrificially give everyone in the match the same latency as the biggest latency in the match
so, if I have the biggest latency, everyone plays at default 140ms delay - this way, moment zero is always at 0ms delay

Edit: Actually what I wrote wasn't quite correct.

What you describe is what happens just now. What state rewind does is rewind the simulation back to moment zero. And it does so accuratly accounting for any delay between the server and you as long as your delay is more or less constant (mitigating jitter is practically impossible). What this means is: if your ping is 140 ms the state rewind will not rewind by 140 ms but in fact by 280 ms because that was the correct state you were seeing when you sent the fire command.

Edited by Jason Parker, 05 March 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[zmeul]

Jason Parker, on 05 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Your proposed solution would not change the fact that the servers calculation of your position is allways late by your latency.

and not by the target's latency

what I propose was already done by CCP in EVE OnLine - "time dilation"
when lag hits the fan, in EVE, everyone fights at the same latency

[DeadGhost]

Does it take into account high latency due to background programs? ie, external downloading, video streaming?