41 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

Maybe PGI will support true double heat sinks as long as you pay MC for them? Or perhaps they can be implemented as a consumable module slot that only lasts one match but allows your heat sinks to function at their full potential. You can buy two levels with Cbills or one with MC

[LarkinOmega]

Skinny Pete, on 04 March 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

They tried true doubles. They even tried 1.5 and a Cicada was able to fire medium lasers for 2 minutes without overheating. (Via the NGNG podcast.)

It can't be done.

And the problem with a Cicada, firing mediums for 2 whole minutes is what exactly? Yes it's a fairly impressive feat, but what is he shooting at? If he's on target for the whole 2 minutes he's being exposed to return fire for 2 minutes,and Cicada's tend to melt fairly quickly. He's also a medium mech, and one that's not fitting large weapons that generate lots of heat. He's already advantaged compared to a much larger mech.

The whole point is that at some level they are exaggerating. I wouldn't be surprised, what with the new information, that at some level they are lying.

It needs to be brought up again.

[Omigir]

[FiveDigits]

Skinny Pete, on 04 March 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

They tried true doubles. They even tried 1.5 and a Cicada was able to fire medium lasers for 2 minutes without overheating. (Via the NGNG podcast.)

It can't be done.

Yeah ... 2 minutes... More like 35 seconds at 2.0 DHS. It also takes a Jenner 3 seconds to core an Atlas from behind.

[Rivqua]

To be fair, the easy fix would be to reverse the order. The first 8 DHS in engine are 1.4, all following are 2.0. That way, the heavier mechs can choose to give up space for heat sinks, and get the benefit, while the "OP" small mechs are limited to a more sane 1.4.

[FiveDigits]

Rivqua, on 04 March 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

To be fair, the easy fix would be to reverse the order. The first 8 DHS in engine are 1.4, all following are 2.0. That way, the heavier mechs can choose to give up space for heat sinks, and get the benefit, while the "OP" small mechs are limited to a more sane 1.4.

Why would you want to replace one arbitrary convoluted mechanic with another?
The Double Heat Sink is a fairly easily understood concept where you pay double(Clan)/triple(IS) crit slot cost to get double dissipation at the same tonnage.
When you start discerning in and out of engine heat sinks and give them odd dissipation values people have a hard time figuring out how to build efficiently. And for what benefit? For balance? It is not balanced. In fact it makes balancing harder because of non linear returns on heat sink investment. There is plenty of room to balance heat on the weapon level. But it can only work on the basis of a sane heat sink implementation.

[Craftyman]

maybe PGI will release true 2.0 doubles for 3000MC per heatsink, i cant wait!

[MustrumRidcully]

Craftyman, on 05 March 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

maybe PGI will release true 2.0 doubles for 3000MC per heatsink, i cant wait!

It's the only thing that makes sense. Except it's a bit cheap for PGI's price schemes.

I mean, the coolant flush will lower your heat by 3.5 % per sink, or something like that, right? That's a pretty low number, if you think about it... Of course, it's still one 3-4 PPC alpha strike extra...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 March 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Viper69, on 04 March 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Everything you wrote after this remark is nullified by your own ignorant jab.

Double heatsink in ENGINE is 2,0

Double heatsink in the REST of the chassis is 1,4

And since we dont suffer from the tabletop drawbacks like:
-Negative targeting modifiers due to heat
-Weapon firing delay due to heat levels
-Risk of shutdown requering a pilot test during several stages of heat

So stop complaining because you still get 10 heatsinks at 2,0 and the reason the rest are 1,4 is because you have no targeting delay on LRM due to heat or anything else.

[Tor6]

If you elite out a chassis you pretty much have true doubles, as was pointed out earlier in the thread.

[rgreat]

Skinny Pete, on 04 March 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

They tried true doubles. They even tried 1.5 and a Cicada was able to fire medium lasers for 2 minutes without overheating. (Via the NGNG podcast.)

It can't be done.

I don't know WHY this is considered a problem....
Do you?

Medium mech can fire few medium lasers without overheating fast?! ON NOES!!!

Edited by rgreat, 05 March 2013 - 03:39 AM.

[rgreat]

Tor6, on 05 March 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

If you elite out a chassis you pretty much have true doubles, as was pointed out earlier in the thread.

Skills increase all stats from the already full base. Speed for example.

Why it must be different for heatsinks?

Edited by rgreat, 05 March 2013 - 03:29 AM.

[PurpleNinja]

Why DHS when you can buy coolant?

[Viper69]

Skinny Pete, on 04 March 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

They tried true doubles. They even tried 1.5 and a Cicada was able to fire medium lasers for 2 minutes without overheating. (Via the NGNG podcast.)

It can't be done.

That is because the weapons are tabletop damage at a cycle rate they did not fire at. If weapon damage was reduced to a rate that equaled the full weapon damage divided by number of shots over ten seconds it should fall back into balance again with full dhs value. Your example is right but not because the HS are the problem its weapon damage and cyclic rate that are. Also weapon cyclic rate is the reason armor values were increased. The root problem is cyclic rare to damage ratio.

[M0rpHeu5]

Sugestion:
Light mechs DHS x1.2
Medium mechs DHS x1.4
Heavy mechs DHS x1.6
Assault mechs DHS x1.8

Splatcat DHS x7

[DrxAbstract]

LarkinOmega, on 04 March 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Thank you Viper. I accounted for that very fact in my Post Highlander, the fact is that mechs who don't need to fit as many DHS benefit MORE from the efficencies than Mechs who DO need them. And yes, I do run mechs that use more than 18 DHS.

I'm sorry, my logic is a bit rusty - How does an Assault need more DHS power than a Light? You are of the impression that because a Medium/Heavy/Assault can carry more weapons, and bigger ones, that they are deserving of more DHS power than a Light? Is there some rule book i'm not aware of stating all non-lights are required to carry as many of the largest weapons you can possibly equip in order to be played? Large Lasers are not required to play an Atlas, AC20s are not required for a Dragon, PPCs are not required equipment for an Awesome and nobody is forcing you to use quad LRM20s on a Stalker. If you want to lower heat generation you use smaller, more efficient weapons; you do not demand an irrelevant 'buff' to fit your heat mongering play style. Did you stop to consider why Lights do not need a lot of Heat Sinks? Probably because they weigh half as much as you, equip half as many total weapons and use the smallest, most heat efficient ones available. You're more than welcome to use some Medium and Small lasers or an AC5/10 or UAC5 instead of an AC20. They get no more 'benefit' from DHS than any other mech. As long as you equip a 250 Engine you get the same 10 2.0 DHS they do. You mounting more weapons on your mech to produce more firepower is your choice and I find that your argument hinges entirely on ignoring the fact Light mechs use heat efficient weapons while having few weapons at all... in which case your entire point is invalidated and i'll restate mine: Nobody is forcing you to use the biggest, most heat intensive weapons available, regardless of you convincing yourself and unfortunately others that such weapons are at all required in heavier mechs to be remotely successful at MWO. My Atlas carries 4 Mlas, SRM4, SRM6, AC5 and UAC5 with a 325STD Engine and 21DHS and it doesnt overheat unless i, the pilot, disregard my heat in favor of risking a shutdown to get in a few more shots. No issue what-so-ever in any other mech i play either unless i've specifically designed it to be heat intensive in favor of risking a shutdown to produce some very powerful shots...

If you want to carry the big guns you're going to pay the price for it... and that price is heat production. Heat Management is just as much a skill required here as Aim.

p.s. You also conveniently ignored the fact that larger mechs can carry more Heat Sinks than lighter ones; More Heat Sinks means a greater bonus from the Cool Run pilot skill.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 05 March 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tor6, on 05 March 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

If you elite out a chassis you pretty much have true doubles, as was pointed out earlier in the thread.

By that logic, all mechs base speed should be 10 to 20 % slower. Turn Radius, Acceleration, Twist Speed, Twist Range, Arm Movement... All should be reduced.
Also, Standard Heat Sinks are too effective, they must be lowered to 0.08 Heat/Second. Also, every mech should have one module slot less, after all, yo uget one extra for Mastering a mech.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 March 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

What most people either ignore or don't understand is that while DHS only operate at 1.4 over a regular heat sink, they also give you 1.4 more heat capacity as well.

While I don't think this is optimal, I do think it works.

[Ashnod]

Now introducing GOLD double heatsinks, dissipating not only 2.0 heat, but 2.4 heat!! Buy now for only 100 mc a sink!

[rgreat]

PurpleNinja, on 05 March 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Why DHS when you can buy coolant?

-35% of heat scale once per battle = close to nothing.