106 replies to this topic

[Lantry]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

That couldn't have been 8 v 8, all the mechs weren't DDCs and 3Ls. /s

Seriously though, people really underestimate the variety you can find in 8 mans. Nice vid.

Don't kid yourself. There is almost no variety in these lineups.

Team Steel Jaguar:

• Atlas D-DC
  
• Catapult A1
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Raven 3L
  
• Raven 3L

Team DRAAGUN:

• Atlas D-DC
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Raven 3L
  
• Raven 3L

Steel Jaguar has an A1 instead of a K2, but other than that the lineups are exactly the same. I don't care if there is "variety" in competitive lineups or not, but don't lie to yourself and say that there is. There clearly isn't.

Edited by Lantry, 05 March 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Dikaiosyne26]

So, will Run Hot or Die have to change their name to "Run Hot or Buy Consumables" after this patch?

[Vladdaimpaler]

Lantry, on 05 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Don't kid yourself. There is almost no variety in these lineups.

Team Steel Jaguar:

• Atlas D-DC
  
• Catapult A1
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Raven 3L
  
• Raven 3L

Team DRAAGUN:

• Atlas D-DC
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Raven 3L
  
• Raven 3L

Steel Jaguar has an A1 instead of a K2, but other than that the lineups are exactly the same. I don't care if there is "variety" in competitive lineups or not, but don't lie to yourself and say that there is. There clearly isn't.

Steel Jaguar and other RHOD teams play to win. not all mechs are equal and not all load outs are equal. "Variety" is a good thing in small doses, but to much just leads to sub-standard builds chaotic team play and overall a un-fun experience.

The variety in RHOD is the way they decide to approach a given drop dec. As it stands now they have 3 choices.

Choice #1 Close range brawler build. this choice generally requires mechs with short range weapons and enough speed to control the range.

Choice #2 Long range build. This choice requires long range weapons (usually energy weapons like LL and ERPPCs with a gauss) and enough ammo for sustained long range firing.

Choice #3 Mix long and short range. This is the toughes to do right because if its matched up against up aganist either of the other two they're most likely to lose aganist equally skilled opponents.

These choices are why you see the lack of "variety" in terms of mech selection. When you're up aganist the best players in the game you cant just take any ole spider (unless its an urbanmech build) and expect to have a reasonable chance of winning.

[Aosj]

Nice match, that's my favorite defensive play on Frozen City. It's always fun 8v8 dropping versus the sporting teams.

[Little Nemo]

Lantry, on 05 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Don't kid yourself. There is almost no variety in these lineups.

Team Steel Jaguar:

• Atlas D-DC
  
• Catapult A1
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Raven 3L
  
• Raven 3L

Team DRAAGUN:

• Atlas D-DC
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Raven 3L
  
• Raven 3L

Steel Jaguar has an A1 instead of a K2, but other than that the lineups are exactly the same. I don't care if there is "variety" in competitive lineups or not, but don't lie to yourself and say that there is. There clearly isn't.

When you are playing seriously, you use what works together. You don't take Cicadas as your mediums when you can take Centurions. You don't take Awesomes when you can take Atlai.

If it's 3rd and 2, you can be pretty sure that the offense is going to run the ball. Because they are making the best choice.

[Truthstar]

Lantry, on 05 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Don't kid yourself. There is almost no variety in these lineups.

Team Steel Jaguar:

• Atlas D-DC
  
• Catapult A1
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Raven 3L
  
• Raven 3L

Team DRAAGUN:

• Atlas D-DC
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Catapult K2
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Centurion A
  
• Raven 3L
  
• Raven 3L

Steel Jaguar has an A1 instead of a K2, but other than that the lineups are exactly the same. I don't care if there is "variety" in competitive lineups or not, but don't lie to yourself and say that there is. There clearly isn't.

Your argument is ret@arded at best. Its like complaining about a lack of variety at a NASCAR race.

Competitive drops in MWO is pitting experience of one Unit's pilots over another.

Edited by Truthstar, 05 March 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[MuonNeutrino]

Truthstar, on 05 March 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Your argument is ret@arded at best. Its like complaining about a lack of variety at a NASCAR race

To be fair, 'a huge lineup of drastically different cars, each with their own wildly distinct characteristics, strengths, and weaknesses' isn't a major selling point of nascar. On the other hand, the extensive and diverse lineup of cool mechs has always been a big part of what makes the battletech franchise great.

And I don't think Lantry was trying to say that the competitive teams ought to run sub-standard mechs just for the sake of variety. *Of course* in a competitive environment the participants will (and *should*!) pursue whatever tactics/strategies/builds they think will give them the best chance of victory, within whatever limitations may be agreed to by both sides. At least for me, it's more disappointment that the current state of the game so severely limits the variety of builds that are viable under that sort of competitive constraint.

[ItsAPotato]

Funny, because every time I play an 8-man, we're matched against 6 cheese mechs and 2 D-DC's...

[Little Nemo]

ItsAPotato, on 05 March 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Funny, because every time I play an 8-man, we're matched against 6 cheese mechs and 2 D-DC's...

"Cheese" seems to be used with anything that is the best choice right now. There will always be a best choice, and the team that uses it to their advantage isn't always guaranteed to win. If one team drops with a brawl deck, and the other with ranged, it's going to be whoever plays to their strengths.

[Chavette]

What happened to my post? Did you guys gang up on me? Not cool, not cool

[Bfvmg]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

That couldn't have been 8 v 8, all the mechs weren't DDCs and 3Ls. /s

Seriously though, people really underestimate the variety you can find in 8 mans. Nice vid.

This was RHOD so the drop weight was fixed.

However, in a standard 8v8 drop...you better run at least 4DDC and 2 Rvn-3L or you will lose.
And each DDC better have LOTS of LRMs and/or PPC/Gauss. Usually both!

Don't believe me? Get together with 7 of your buddies, and drop as an 8-man. At least 7 or 8 of 10 drops will feature a make up like I Described.

[Little Nemo]

Bfvmg, on 05 March 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

This was RHOD so the drop weight was fixed.

However, in a standard 8v8 drop...you better run at least 4DDC and 2 Rvn-3L or you will lose.
And each DDC better have LOTS of LRMs and/or PPC/Gauss. Usually both!

Don't believe me? Get together with 7 of your buddies, and drop as an 8-man. At least 7 or 8 of 10 drops will feature a make up like I Described.

We practice drop decks nightly and do well on a consistent bases. TheMagician makes good calls, and we play to our strengths.

[Mister Blastman]

Nice match.

[Lefty Lucy]

Vladdaimpaler, on 05 March 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Steel Jaguar and other RHOD teams play to win. not all mechs are equal and not all load outs are equal. "Variety" is a good thing in small doses, but to much just leads to sub-standard builds chaotic team play and overall a un-fun experience.

The variety in RHOD is the way they decide to approach a given drop dec. As it stands now they have 3 choices.

Choice #1 Close range brawler build. this choice generally requires mechs with short range weapons and enough speed to control the range.

Choice #2 Long range build. This choice requires long range weapons (usually energy weapons like LL and ERPPCs with a gauss) and enough ammo for sustained long range firing.

Choice #3 Mix long and short range. This is the toughes to do right because if its matched up against up aganist either of the other two they're most likely to lose aganist equally skilled opponents.

These choices are why you see the lack of "variety" in terms of mech selection. When you're up aganist the best players in the game you cant just take any ole spider (unless its an urbanmech build) and expect to have a reasonable chance of winning.

Long range builds will frequently use TBK and CTF builds for the heavies and mediums, though DDCs are still the default lights and assaults. Come to think of it teams will mix in some stalkers for either long or short range due to ppc and srm boating potential.

That gives us a total of 7 different chassis (not variants) used frequently in competitive play. Granted it would be nice if every single variant had a place, 7 different chassis is still better than a lot of people make it out to be.

That being said, I totally agree that variety is not as important as a lot of people make it out to be. Seeing variety just for variety's sake is not really an important component for fun in competition, IMO.

[BigJim]

Nice vid.

Skinny Pete, on 04 March 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

Please share if you are interested in seeing more competitive content. Thanks!

My dream for a while has been to arrange a 7v7 scrim, with the 8th man on each team being a commando with Hud turned off, acting as a free-roaming cameraman, recording the action.
..And each player on the team recording his/her own footage.

I'd love to put that vid together, a competitive match, filmed from both inside and outside, and edited together so it flowed in real-time showing the PoV of both teams...

One (soon) day I will do it.

[Az0r]

The only weight class that has no variety is the Light (thanks ECM). The rest have a surprisingly high number of builds.
Mediums have:
2 Centurion builds in the 9-D and the 9-A.
The new JJ/PPC Trebuchet.
Cicada 3M
And sometimes the HBK-4SP makes an appearance.

Heavies have:
MANY Cataphract builds including: Gauss Ilya, 2x(er)ppc + gauss + JJ 3D, 3x UAC5 Ilya and many varients built on these.
3 Stellar catapult builds in the 2xAC20 cat, 2x Gausscat, 6srm6 cat (or varients)

Assaults have:
DDC Brawler, DDC Missle boat, Ranged RS builds
PPC stalker, 5LL stalker


Those are just the mechs I can think of off the top of my head that I see regularly in 8s. There is variety, unfortunately it's not the OH i'm bringing my 2xAC2 LRM10 2xML Dragon kind.

[3rdworld]

BigJim, on 05 March 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Nice vid.



My dream for a while has been to arrange a 7v7 scrim, with the 8th man on each team being a commando with Hud turned off, acting as a free-roaming cameraman, recording the action.
..And each player on the team recording his/her own footage.

I'd love to put that vid together, a competitive match, filmed from both inside and outside, and edited together so it flowed in real-time showing the PoV of both teams...

One (soon) day I will do it.

I like the idea. I would use a spider though, could get some sweet flyover shots using the 12 JJ model.

[hashinshin]

Which makes for more variety

weight limit: IE 500 tons for each 8 man team.
or
preset drop: IE 1 assault 2 heavies 3 mediums 2 lights

[3rdworld]

hashinshin, on 05 March 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Which makes for more variety

weight limit: IE 500 tons for each 8 man team.
or
preset drop: IE 1 assault 2 heavies 3 mediums 2 lights

depends what you are looking for. It will always be the same 5-10 mechs that are the current meta winners.

But when we have done some Marik drops (weight limits) I see much more diversity in the mechs fielded. (do i take 2 atlases and a cent or an atlas and 2 poptarts?) not a perfect example but you get the idea.

[Lefty Lucy]

Az0r, on 05 March 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

The only weight class that has no variety is the Light (thanks ECM). The rest have a surprisingly high number of builds.
Mediums have:
2 Centurion builds in the 9-D and the 9-A.
The new JJ/PPC Trebuchet.
Cicada 3M
And sometimes the HBK-4SP makes an appearance.

Heavies have:
MANY Cataphract builds including: Gauss Ilya, 2x(er)ppc + gauss + JJ 3D, 3x UAC5 Ilya and many varients built on these.
3 Stellar catapult builds in the 2xAC20 cat, 2x Gausscat, 6srm6 cat (or varients)

Assaults have:
DDC Brawler, DDC Missle boat, Ranged RS builds
PPC stalker, 5LL stalker


Those are just the mechs I can think of off the top of my head that I see regularly in 8s. There is variety, unfortunately it's not the OH i'm bringing my 2xAC2 LRM10 2xML Dragon kind.

Jman5 plays his SP in 8s and rocks with it. I wish I was as good in my DDC as he is in an SP.