497 replies to this topic

[AlexEss]

Frist off. If i could have a buck for every "slippery slope" argument i have heard over the years i'd be a rich man by now.

Secondly once again you could argue that the MC version is at best equal and in some way worse. Sure you get a 35% heat dump but it is a one time deal. The CBills version let you spread the cooling over a larger time frame. As for the other two we do not know how they will work or how accurate they are (but i get a sense that the River city and forest maps will play a bit different after this.)

Now again the most common notation of P2W is a advantage that can only be achieved by paying real money (such as the top tier cars in NFS:World previously only being sold for real world cash, or selling ammo that does more damage) So i can agree that this skirts the line. But it is still on the right side of the line in my mind. Depending on how strong the T2 vs T3 arty and airstrike is we might skirt over on the wrong side of things. But seeing how they have managed to balance stuff so far, i am not to worried (and if they fix the claimed faulty hitbox on the 3L and get State rewimn to work as promised the other so called balance issue will be solved too)

All in all i am not to worried. Poptarts might get another alpha out if it but in the long run it will not matter all that much i think.

[Cubivorre]

Airwind, on 04 March 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

so america goes to war with china. then american soldiers decided to use their pocket money to buy some scopes for their rifles. China soldiers were enraged and started to flood the NATO forums and cries P2W P2W...

This has to be the most unrelated post ever.. This neither contributes or argues a stance in a legitimate manner. Please reword your post.

[armyof1]

Cubivorre, on 04 March 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

This has to be the most unrelated post ever.. This neither contributes or argues a stance in a legitimate manner. Please reword your post.

I think it says quite clearly what he wants, as long as you have more money you should get a bigger chance to win. So P2W FTW I guess.

[Tarman]

Levon K, on 04 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

Why is there so much whining going on here?

The C-Bill coolant flush has a distinct advantage of having 2 separate uses. The MC version has a distinct advantage of being able to drop more heat in a single shot. So I see two viable options each with their own advantages. How can this be P2W?

In fact, I would rather have the C-Bill version.

Not only that, I'm a fan of variety and choices. Making a boring straight linear equivalent consumables model is just plain boring. Now there are decisions to be made.

Also I would like for you to prove to me how you think a normal player can pay to win simply by equipping a Tier 3 coolant flush. You can scream P2W all you want, but I don't think it's gonna make people win. It's like saying a hero mech is P2W. There is always a better alternative chassis that you will win more matches in.

There isn't a better alternative to a T3 module in this delivery model. Single-effect T1+T2= -1 module slot compared to a moneyguy running two separate-effect T3/T3 modules. Straight up better ability running a cashcow than a freeride. Ruins the e-sport scene immediately; those guys are hardcore but they actually want to fight each other on fair terms, not by who has the best IRL job. That alone kills off this game for a large portion of its playerbase.

If this is the model for their future business plans then the P2W is only going to increase in prevalence. Nobody starts off being totally crappy, it's a series of small steps. I'd rather they walked in a different direction than down into the pit of dead and dying F2P games that went there for this exact reason. If this business model can strangle a STAR TREK game, then the Mechwarrior IP certainly doesn't have the chops to save it. And if it dies this time, it's not coming back. It'll be in the ground for good.

[Mackman]

AlexEss, on 04 March 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

Frist off. If i could have a buck for every "slippery slope" argument i have heard over the years i'd be a rich man by now.

Secondly once again you could argue that the MC version is at best equal and in some way worse. Sure you get a 35% heat dump but it is a one time deal. The CBills version let you spread the cooling over a larger time frame. As for the other two we do not know how they will work or how accurate they are (but i get a sense that the River city and forest maps will play a bit different after this.)

Now again the most common notation of P2W is a advantage that can only be achieved by paying real money (such as the top tier cars in NFS:World previously only being sold for real world cash, or selling ammo that does more damage) So i can agree that this skirts the line. But it is still on the right side of the line in my mind. Depending on how strong the T2 vs T3 arty and airstrike is we might skirt over on the wrong side of things. But seeing how they have managed to balance stuff so far, i am not to worried (and if they fix the claimed faulty hitbox on the 3L and get State rewimn to work as promised the other so called balance issue will be solved too)

All in all i am not to worried. Poptarts might get another alpha out if it but in the long run it will not matter all that much i think.

If this were the only module in the game, sure, you'd have a point.

But it's not. And the fact that a paying player is always going to have better options when it comes to modules is extremely problematic.

If you're a non-paying player, and your mech has 3 module slots, you can choose to get Tier 1 and Tier 2 cooling (for 35% flushing) and one other module, whether it's another Tier 2 Consumable or another kind of module.

If you're a paying player, and your mech has 3 module slots, you can get a Tier 3 Coolant (for 35% flushing), another tier 3 consumable (which right there puts you over the non-paying player), and you still have another slot for whatever else you want in there.

You may still be thinking, "well, alright, that's kind of an advantage, but it's still pretty small." Now multiply that advantage by 8 (or 12, when we get 12v12), and you'll see that a paying lance will have a huge​ advantage over a non-paying lance in any kind of competitive setting.

[BrkDncr]

Dr Killinger, on 04 March 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

There's no defending this move. It's an advantage for money. No matter how small it may be, it does not bode well for the future.

to be perfectly clear, this is a short-term money grab. This will detract from the game long-term.

[LordBraxton]

Its true, no defending this one guys.

[Cubivorre]

armyof1, on 04 March 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

I think it says quite clearly what he wants, as long as you have more money you should get a bigger chance to win. So P2W FTW I guess.

No, relating real-life war to a video game is completely different. We are talking business strategy and marketing - Not different countries military budgets.

[BARBAR0SSA]

How about save the complaining until AFTER prices are out, I love this whole "Run into a group fully outfitted with MC airstrikes and coolant" do you seriously think that if it cost 5,000,000 Cbills for a coolant or 1200MC per use that you will have people rampantly using them?!

Everyones just assuming you will see 6ppc stalker builds all the time that never shut down.

If someone wants to shell out a few thousand dollars to the game...let them, it's a SLIGHT advantage and you have the option for the same gear. Like I said, I'd rather they have more money to continue to develop the game into something great and get CW in ASAP etc.

Right now i'm burnt out of the game and I've just been back for 2 weeks! So they need to hire!

[Bilbo]

Wow....I'm not seeing it. The better way to go, if you were so inclined, is to go the c-bill route. That gives you two shots at lowering your heat enough to take that last shot, vice the one time use of the mc version. Besides being worthless if you can manage heat, neither are appealing to me because the other modules are more usefull throughout the match and don't have to be rebought.

[Red Klown X]

You are totaly wrong

and must have low skill **!!!

Since all the competetive mech used by clan for match are not hero mech .

You FAIL HARD.

Good troll by the way .

More cry , more tear pls !

*if you want leave the game , i accept your account as a gift . Can i hab your stouff pls ?
** NYOUB .

Edited by klownnection, 04 March 2013 - 11:41 PM.

[MisterPlanetarian]

BrkDncr, on 04 March 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

to be perfectly clear, this is a short-term money grab. This will detract from the game long-term.

Im pretty sure this was something the publishers talked PGI into after looking at Hawken. Which sucks really. Publishers have waaay to much influence on the development process in f2p games, since alot of time needs to be spent on microtransaction related stuff.

I know im not spending a sincle cent on this game again untill they remove MC consumeables. Give me a reasonable subscription plan. I'd love to pay 15 bucks a month for a few extra mechbays and better premium bonuses. Hero mechs are hardly pay to win since all but two are inferior to other regular variants, so i'll put up with it.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Mackman, on 04 March 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

If this were the only module in the game, sure, you'd have a point.

But it's not. And the fact that a paying player is always going to have better options when it comes to modules is extremely problematic.

If you're a non-paying player, and your mech has 3 module slots, you can choose to get Tier 1 and Tier 2 cooling (for 35% flushing) and one other module, whether it's another Tier 2 Consumable or another kind of module.

If you're a paying player, and your mech has 3 module slots, you can get a Tier 3 Coolant (for 35% flushing), another tier 3 consumable (which right there puts you over the non-paying player), and you still have another slot for whatever else you want in there.

You may still be thinking, "well, alright, that's kind of an advantage, but it's still pretty small." Now multiply that advantage by 8 (or 12, when we get 12v12), and you'll see that a paying lance will have a huge​ advantage over a non-paying lance in any kind of competitive setting.

SERIOUSLY?!

The MC Purchased Large Coolant Flush allows a player to trigger a coolant flush once during a match.


The C-Bill Purchased Coolant Flush will allow a player to trigger a coolant flush twice during a match.




GIVE ME THE CBILL TWICE USE FLUSH PLEASE

Or guess what you can buy the Medium and use it twice....%20x2 vs 35%x1. I'd take the %20...oh and guess what ONLY USES 1 SLOT.


it's not P2W the non pay version is BETTER IMO

Edited by shad0w4life, 04 March 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[Headlessnewt]

Speaking as a former FTP MMO company employee who got to watch a game run into the ground from the inside, you cannot save a company from themselves.

I want MWO to be good too. I've paid them some money. I'm having fun.

If you want them to fix things, don't ***** on the forum.

Quit.

Don't just stop paying them money, quit.

Don't stop playing and stay on the forums, just vanish. If enough people do it, you will see change. But PGI does not care about you personally or anything you have to say, even if you are a founder who's spent ten thousand dollars on this game.

[Protection]

shad0w4life, on 04 March 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

How about save the complaining until AFTER prices are out,

Quote

. . . slippery slope argument . . .

This is not a slippery slope argument. This is an argument against the implementation of a tiered system that gives paying players advantages. At all and in any form at any time whatsoever. Unacceptable.



If you allow it to come into existence, then the tiered module/consumable system becomes established and entrenched and allowed to happen. it becomes the system. It becomes the norm.

The problem isn't limited to this one set of modules. The problem is the whole system being implemented. This system must be opposed and destroyed and destroyed now.

Quote

I love this whole "Run into a group fully outfitted with MC airstrikes and coolant" do you seriously think that if it cost 5,000,000 Cbills for a coolant or 1200MC per use that you will have people rampantly using them?!

Everyones just assuming you will see 6ppc stalker builds all the time that never shut down.

If someone wants to shell out a few thousand dollars to the game...let them, it's a SLIGHT advantage and you have the option for the same gear. Like I said, I'd rather they have more money to continue to develop the game into something great and get CW in ASAP etc.

Right now i'm burnt out of the game and I've just been back for 2 weeks! So they need to hire!

If it costs 1 MC then free players will never ever have it.

[Tarman]

klownnection, on 04 March 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

You are totaly wrong

and must have low skill **!!!

Since all the competetive mech used by clan for match are not hero mech .

You FAIL HARD.

Good troll by the way .

More cry , more tear pls !

*if you want leave the game , i accept your account as a gift . Can i hab your stouff pls ?
** NYOUB .

At least the clown portion of your post is accurate.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

KinLuu, on 04 March 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Does not really matter. MC consumables will still take one module slot less, module slots that could be used for target decay, sensor range, 360 deg and so on. It may be only a small advantage, but it IS an advantage. And this is exactly where Pay2win begins.

[Noobzorz]

AlexEss, on 04 March 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

Frist off. If i could have a buck for every "slippery slope" argument i have heard over the years i'd be a rich man by now.

Secondly once again you could argue that the MC version is at best equal and in some way worse. Sure you get a 35% heat dump but it is a one time deal. The CBills version let you spread the cooling over a larger time frame. As for the other two we do not know how they will work or how accurate they are (but i get a sense that the River city and forest maps will play a bit different after this.)

Now again the most common notation of P2W is a advantage that can only be achieved by paying real money (such as the top tier cars in NFS:World previously only being sold for real world cash, or selling ammo that does more damage) So i can agree that this skirts the line. But it is still on the right side of the line in my mind. Depending on how strong the T2 vs T3 arty and airstrike is we might skirt over on the wrong side of things. But seeing how they have managed to balance stuff so far, i am not to worried (and if they fix the claimed faulty hitbox on the 3L and get State rewimn to work as promised the other so called balance issue will be solved too)

All in all i am not to worried. Poptarts might get another alpha out if it but in the long run it will not matter all that much i think.

I am going to be blunt with you, because so far as I can tell this is a fact, a law as natural as gravitation or electromagnetism.

The slippery slope is real, the evidence is incontrovertible, and if you disagree, then maybe the reason you aren't a rich man is because you blindly and obtusely ignore the truth, not because you don't get a dime for every slippery slope argument you here.

The game has never been made that started off P2-slight-advantage (an academic distinction, of course, because this is also P2W) that didn't end up in P2-not-be-guaranteed-a-loss-every-time-your-opponent-pays. That's it, that's all.

The proposition that one module slot vs. the two time use thing makes them equivalent is totally ludicrous, but at least within the realm of possibility.

[Mackman]

shad0w4life, on 04 March 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

SERIOUSLY?!

The MC Purchased Large Coolant Flush allows a player to trigger a coolant flush once during a match.


The C-Bill Purchased Coolant Flush will allow a player to trigger a coolant flush twice during a match.




GIVE ME THE CBILL TWICE USE FLUSH PLEASE

Or guess what you can buy the Medium and use it twice....%20x2 vs 35%x1. I'd take the %20


it's not P2W the non pay version is BETTER IMO

.... You can't stack the same module. You can't buy two Tier 2's. Do you understand that? Also, do you realize that to get any sort of benefit from having two flushes, you'd have to use them in two completely separate bouts of fighting, with heat returning to 0 in between? Because otherwise, you'd have achieved the eaxct same effect (although probably slightly less, due to the %-based system) than the MC version.

And again, you are failing to take into account the other modules that the paying player will be able to have while the non-paying player will not.

[armyof1]

shad0w4life, on 04 March 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

How about save the complaining until AFTER prices are out, I love this whole "Run into a group fully outfitted with MC airstrikes and coolant" do you seriously think that if it cost 5,000,000 Cbills for a coolant or 1200MC per use that you will have people rampantly using them?!

Everyones just assuming you will see 6ppc stalker builds all the time that never shut down.

If someone wants to shell out a few thousand dollars to the game...let them, it's a SLIGHT advantage and you have the option for the same gear. Like I said, I'd rather they have more money to continue to develop the game into something great and get CW in ASAP etc.

Right now i'm burnt out of the game and I've just been back for 2 weeks! So they need to hire!

The problem is that the devs are extremely unmotivated to take back things they've added into the game, whether the things are really broken or not. They might tweak it a bit but in the end it'll pretty much remain the same. So once this obvious advantage of being able to pay to get an edge is in effect it will not be removed, And complaining afterwards is the really pointless thing to do. Seriously I've only seen a huge majority of the current players be against the whole coolant idea, but somehow the devs still will put it in there, which really tells you their lack of listening to their players, which is always a recipe for disaster for any game.